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Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by TangoFoxtrot, Oct 7, 2012.
Thats what my original intent was.
i know, I think the pizzing contest somewhat dilluted it a bit....
RRA ar15a2 has standard sights. I have a completed mega machine lower that will have a DD or colt upper with fixed irons+aimpoint.
Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.
Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.
No? Nothing? Dont worry, read again, its all in ther. Was just tryin to relate a very similar experience I had to an argument other posters were making. Thus the reason it started with de ja vue. Diddnt pick up on that?
Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.
I, myself would love to walk into the Trophy Shop at Camp Perry and see my name on one of those. Until, I feel confident enough for that, I’ll keep practicing with Iron Sights and keep doing the rifle matches at my club.
I the past, I have hunted with Iron Sights and Red Dots. I can use either. I like Red Dots on a handgun and Iron Sights on the shotgun.
We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.
We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.
Too me not having BUIS on an AR is like driving a car without a spare tire..just plain foolish IMHO.
My optics cowittness with irons! KISS!
I can understand the position you need to take.
For the past 3 years, I have been going up to Camp Perry for the EIC Rifle or Pistol Matches. The AMU and the NRA coaches have showed me so much and have helped me out with my shooting ability, that I am hooked on Competition Shooting. More rifle than pistol. I share this information with friends and coworkers all the time. I have people that tell me the advice was helpful to them. Then I tell them about the course. But most people dont want to take the time for it.
My first year of the rifle matches I was a little intimidated at shooting 200 yards with Iron Sights. I scored in the 260s out of a possible 400 points. I practiced what I learned until the next match. The second year I took the advanced course. I scored in the 320s out of a possible 400 points. Sometimes, I wish I had these guys on speed dial for pointers. :embarassed:
So yes, I do understand if they arent hitten, then they are splitten. And youll never see them again.
We need to keep in miind what type of shooting we are doing.
The base line needs to start somewhere doesnt it? Shouldnt the fundamentals be transferable?
If I refuse to work with folks based upon foolishness, We would have no clients! By the same token, many of the things that I am habituated to doing are likely foolish some of the time.
We try our best to lead them to the tall, cool drink of water that is rifle mastery, yet we depend upon their heart, their hands, their will, and their faith to get them to raise that glass to their lips and refresh and replentish the skills of our people that are depended upon for our continued enjoyment of the Blessings of Liberty.
The fundamentals are transferable, yet one cannot transfer what has not been developed. RDS allow rifle shooters to get easy hits up close without applying parts of the fundamentals. Once habituated to shooting without applying the fundamentals, it is very difficult to break bad habits. Success initially comes a bit more slowly when the well proven step by step methods are applied in conditioning a shooter to consistently applying the fundamentals, but a thourough mastery of basic marksmanship skills.
NRA Education and training loosely defines that as hitting a 6 inch target at 100 yards consistently with a centerfire rifle from all 5 basic rifle positions or a 1 1/4 inch target at 50 ft with a rimfire, any sights. BSA defines it as 1 1/8 inch groups at 50 ft from prone with metallic sights.
We routinely get Boy Scouts to their standard in 7-9 hours at camp and others to the NRA Basic Rifle Standard in the 14 hour basic rifle course.
Once we get the basic skills developed, we can taylor a program geared toward the shooters objectives, steer them toward a self directed course in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program, or help them find a club with matches geared toward their interests.
From the sound of it, it seems you guys do a great job with new shooters.
I have seen some people on the firing line at the Club I belong too with some bad habits. Sometimes I wonder where they learned how to shoot. I have tried to give them advise, but most of them don't want to hear it. Some do though.
A couple of weeks ago, the guy next to me was shooting his AR. He was shooting all over the place. I noticed he had a different cheek weld everytime. I told him maybe he needs to try putting his nose to the charging handle a few times and see what happens. He did much better and thanked me. He was an older guy with his first AR.
Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.
Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.
Appleseed events are awesome and if one is near you it should not be missed! New shooters will be grounded in the fundamentals and experienced shooters can have a good time getting quality practice and enjoying the camaraderie of like minded folks. 4H has a good program in many areas and BSA offers solid training.
I started instructing with Appleseed this year, no need to sell me on it.