Summing up the problem with defensive tactics for police

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by mercop, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. mercop

    mercop

    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Location:
    PA
    Most agencies offer very little force on force training where you get the snot beat out of you. You may get some in the academy. As far as in-service you can pretty much forget it. IMHO there are two big reasons for this, one is that the people that OK the training are no spring chickens and are usually riding a desk. They are not going to OK in-service that they have to attend that would require them to break a sweat. The other problem is that realistic training is likely to result in loss time injuries. Loosing one officer with a broken thumb or a blown knee will cost an enormous amount of money in OT when agencies are already crying poor mouth. It may also cause days off and vacations to be canceled. Most police do not like real hands on training, take a vacation day and it gives them another good reason not to like it. Then the climate in the agency turns more and more in favor of classes like report writing and cultural awareness.

    Those who want it will go out and get it. Those who don't would not take it for free. Cops are typically lazy and cheap and spend all their time looking about something to ***** about and generally like not liking things. The good ones flock together and make it all worth it. For those who are still out their doing the job, God Bless you. Don't let the bosses and slackers bring you down.- George
     
  2. kgain673

    kgain673

    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Location:
    glen burnie, MD
    This sounds just like any career or job and we all can apply this to were we work, not just LE.
     

  3. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

    Messages:
    8,723
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2002
    Location:
    Lake Charles, LA
    Sorry, but I think that training where you get the snot beat out of you or training in a manner that is likely to result in losing an officer to a broken thumb or a blown knee to be a problem. I prefer teaching not to get the snot beat out of you and trying to avoid injuries.
    And this is a problem how?? Many officers need all the help they can get writing reports and cultural awareness is now a big part of the job.
     
  4. GioaJack

    GioaJack Conifer Jack

    Messages:
    10,016
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Location:
    Conifer, CO

    Interesting theory... certainly food for thought. I guess it's possible that all those 'past spring chicken' and 'slacker' desk riders you speak of are nothing more than departmental ornamentation. I guess it's also possible you could give them a world class education on real police work.

    Oh, wait a minute... maybe some of those 'old guys' actually did something in their careers... possibly before you were a gleam in your father's eye.

    There's a bunch of guys on this forum who 'earned' their time on the desk or the responsibility of trying to train a new generation who already knew it all and were above listening to the old guy.

    Of course those old slackers know nothing about 'hands on' police work... they never had to practice it. If things got bad they just reached up to their shoulder mike and called for help... no, no, that can't be right... there's a whole bunch of us who worked when handheld radios were something out of Star Trek.

    Well hell, that was no problem 'cause if things ever got serious you always had a vest to give you a better chance than the bad guy... oh yeah, I almost forgot... they weren't invented yet and when Second Chance did invent one your department strenuously frowned on you buying one with your own money because they thought the public would be offended by the outline under your uniform shirt. Of course no one ever even thought of suing the department because after all, we were just future slackers who didn't know anything.

    Not having a vest wasn't all that bad because even though you didn't have a radio to call for help you were certainly armed with the state of the art weaponry, all eighteen rounds of rhino stopping 158 grain lead round nose. Eighteen rounds, who the hell would ever need that much ammunition... that is until you get pinned behind the engine block of your marked unit and you're down to your last two rounds because there's no way to call for help. Not to worry, the dispatchers knew enough to worry when they didn't hear from you and twenty-eight minutes later you got to hear those 'old fashioned' sirens of two cars and watch the 'Mash' style Bell helicopter land and the pilot come running with a shotgun. By your standards he'd be nothing but a slacker today 'cause he might be riding a desk... but back then he'd already logged a minimum of 600 hours flying a Huey in Vietnam, just for the privilege of flying a Korean war vintage helicopter over Miami.

    Of course none of that really mattered because if things got ugly you always had your partner to back you up, you know, just in case three guys in a car with a trunk full of heroin or some upstanding citizens hauling six ton of grass didn't think kindly of going to jail. Oops, my old 'slacker' mind is failing me again... there were no two man units unless you were an FTO and you had a rookie with you. Again, no problem, you just grabbed your taser, ah, nope, not invented yet. Well then, your pepper spray, oh yeah, pepper was something you put on a steak. Well then you just did what you got paid to do and you didn't complain about it... you used a stick, Kel-Lite, sap, feet and hands. Some how it got done... not without a price, you got to know every doctor and nurse in every emergency room in your district... but the job got down.

    Funny thing is after a while some of the stuff stared to catch up with you... the broken backs, broken ribs, jaws, wrists started to really ache when you moved. The knife slashes and ice pick holes reminded you that maybe you weren't quite as quick as you used to be. Sure, you had a lot to pass on to the rookies to help them stay alive but as much as you might have wished the body just might get to the point where you can't 'show' them anymore. And of course you certainly wouldn't want to do anything that might cause you to 'break a sweat'.

    You don't know me from Adam and I don't really give a damn but your comments and attitude are an insult to people like Dragoon and other people on this forum and tens of thousands who never even heard of this forum.

    I wish you all the best in your career and hope you stay safe each and every moment but perhaps you should take some time to consider those who came before you.

    Jack
     
  5. h2opolo150

    h2opolo150

    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Location:
    california
    Isn't this why they become FTO's? So they can make someone else write the reports?
     
  6. mercop

    mercop

    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Location:
    PA
    I am pretty sure that those on the job or those that have been on the job can read between the lines of my comments.

    The vast majority of ongoing tactics training revolves around firearms if the agency has anything beyond qualifications. In the grand scheme of things very few calls require the presentation of a firearm and even less the actual discharging of one. In contrast all arrests always have and always will require an officer to come in physical contact with the suspect take him into custody, but for some reason dealing with this situations and what to do when they go wrong is too often overlooked.

    Last week I was at the Southwest Alabama Police Academy teaching Edged Weapon Survival for Law Enforcement. Time in service ranged from 3-27 years. The officers were from AL, FL, and MS. Not one of the officers had received any previous training in dealing with the edged weapon threat beyond the good ol 21 foot rule. This was the case even though every officer agreed that they came in contact with and seized many more edged weapons than firearms.- George
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2010
  7. lawman800

    lawman800 Juris Glocktor

    Messages:
    38,475
    Likes Received:
    120
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Location:
    It just keeps getting better, don't it?
    We have a good cadre of DT instructors and some of them are MMA fighters from a gym that my buddy owns. I worked out there and know some of the guys. They teach as much as they can to a group that is not the most necessarily motivated to learn street fighting tactics. You need motivated students who want to learn but the reality is, the instructors pretty much teach what is the easiest to learn and most direct techniques in the time they have, usually an hour and half block every 3 to 6 months.
     
  8. CAcop

    CAcop

    Messages:
    24,082
    Likes Received:
    7,317
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2002
    Location:
    California
    Yes training could be better. But we blow out knees and shoulders on a regular basis with the training that we actually do. Right now we have a guy at our office who is going to have his third surgery on his knee from blowing it out two training seasons ago.

    Why do you think Tazers have become the go to weapon in LE?
     
  9. DonGlock26

    DonGlock26

    Messages:
    55,688
    Likes Received:
    20,481
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    We lose people to injury from simple DT training. I've seen backs go out, broken fingers, and broken ribs. But, the city does not support ANY type of physical conditioning training for its officers, either. The FD guys get time and equipment to work out.
     
  10. mercop

    mercop

    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Location:
    PA
    Sad, isn't it?
     
  11. p.d.

    p.d.

    Messages:
    2,431
    Likes Received:
    2,366
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Location:
    Dry Ridge, Kentucky
    Amen, Jack. And thanks from an old guy.
     
  12. Hack

    Hack Crazy CO Gold Member

    Messages:
    18,143
    Likes Received:
    24
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Location:
    Kansas, near the bison.
    FWIW there is training, then there is just plain abuse. Having worked in a corrections environment for nearly 20 years I have had plenty of opportunity to give, and to receive. I have been fortunate that the most I have been given was a few skinned knuckles in my time, twisted knees, severe smoke inhalation, etcetera. I still have this urge to body slam, but in the more recent way of doing things talking down a fellow to distraction is the way to do things or get written up for not attempting it first. And, to be honest, the older a person gets physically, the more time it takes to recover from injuries. That is lost time from being on the job, having to find a replacement for that fellow who is recovering from the ranks thereby thinning out the whole department area of operations, or agency AO.

    Then there is the liability factors. To require that a person goes whole hog into the physical aspects of LE is not done because of liability on the department or agency.

    But, just to make sure you understand, this old fellow, who has worked in some pretty rough spots with way less equipment than a street cop, deserves a break once in awhile. You got that youngun? Good!



    So, what use of force model do you go with?
     
  13. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

    Messages:
    8,723
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2002
    Location:
    Lake Charles, LA
    I was the first in my department to buy a concealable vest. The third day I wore it the Chief called me in. Conversation went something like this:
    Chief: "Notice you are wearing one of those new bulletproof vests."
    Me: "Yes Sir!"
    Chief: "Why?"
    Me: "It's supposed to protect me if I get shot."
    Chief: "You're a cop. Are you afraid of getting shot?"
    Me: "Not any more...I've got a vest!"
    Chief: "Go take that thing off. Real cops don't worry about getting shot, and besides it is not an authorized part of your uniform."
     
  14. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    16,815
    Likes Received:
    6,979
    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Football.

    Every team, every single one, trains to avoid injury. They go so far as to prohibit hits on quarterbacks. Would they be better and more realistic teams if they did away with that restriction and beat the snot out of the QB?

    Fighters. Not hobbyists, but pros.

    More of them than football teams, so I'm not going to say "every". But do they train by getting the snot beat out of them? Again, they train to avoid injury, because they aren't going to take home the purse if they blow out their knee or their back.


    OTOH, defensive tactics trainers in most places aren't the caliber of professional sports trainers. The mindset tends to "we don't get much time, so let's go real hard with the time we have". Street cops get plenty of "beat the snot" time and fights for real, and it simply isn't required in the mat room. Multiple reps of basic skills are required. Training to success is required. A coherent program that builds on itself (as opposed to a hodgepodge of trainers' favorite techniqes) is required.

    If DT trainers would adopt the mindset and approaches of sports coaches, things would improve. They may not control funding or attitudes of chiefs, but they do control those things.
     
  15. JBaird22

    JBaird22

    Messages:
    1,679
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Location:
    Washington
    Most agencies do train to avoid injuries and law suits. I agree that DT training needs to be more reality based and not static "take your partner and do xyz." DT training, like most of the other skills based training needs to have a reality based component. I don't know about you, but I never take off my boots and pitch someone on the floor. I also don't go home, put on my jeans or my 5.11's and go back in service to reengage when I might be in a gun fight. As police though, these are the ways that we train. At the end of a driving course we don't practice a felony car stop or get out and run a quarter mile even though this is what happens at the end of most chases or code 3 runs. Its mindset and until someone has the balls to change and innovate and someone who writes in blue ink gives the green light, we'll continue to play it safe.
     
  16. FM12

    FM12 I need AMMO!

    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Location:
    Alabama
    Defensive training? What is that? We hardly do firearms training!
     
  17. CanIhaveGasCash

    CanIhaveGasCash

    Messages:
    785
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Location:
    8,000 feet.
    We have a pretty decent program where we throw on the redman suits and go at it. Keeps injuries to a minimum while still allowing us to use strikes and kicks in a dynamic situation instead of just kicking a pad.

    Do people get injured occasionally, yea, is the training worth it? Definitely.
     
  18. Morris

    Morris CLM

    Messages:
    10,997
    Likes Received:
    946
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2001
    Location:
    North of Seattle, South of Canada
    Mercop,

    For the benefit of all here, your qualifications? Years on the street? And so on. Will help to validate your positions.
     
  19. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    16,815
    Likes Received:
    6,979
    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
  20. Gangrel

    Gangrel

    Messages:
    1,865
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    GioaJack, I don't think mercop is insulting people who merely aren't the spring chickens they used to be. I think he is pointing out that sometimes those same officers are in the administrative positions which allow their personal feelings to influence the training which is provided at the department. Not to mention... there ARE lazy, useless officers out there whose seniority, position or political pull makes their voice far louder than it should be.

    A lack of interest, fear of injury, fear of liability, whatever, should not prevent motivated officers from receiving the training they need and desire. It's more complicated than "those that will and those that won't". There are plenty of officers in the middle that will do whatever is set before them. They may moan and groan about it, but in the end they are better for receiving the training, regardless of how they felt during the class.

    I am a DT instructor for my department. We receive a ton of flak every single time one of our training blocks comes around because of these types of... nay sayers.

    Those old, beat up, scarred and war torn officers aren't the ones we have problems with. Like I said, they may moan and groan but they get the job done (and they usually surprise you, doing better than one would expect). Its the lazy, unmotivated and loud ones which ruin the training environment.

    I don't think we need to "beat the snot" out of people. However, providing officers with some real force on force physical training would be a great experience for them. There is no need to be going 100% and trying to hurt one another. Throwing on some pads and going 25% would be more than enough to be effective training and would be better than most departments provide right now.