Stupid battery question?

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Adjuster, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. icantpick

    icantpick Señor Member

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    Imagine you have two twelve foot ladders. You sit them beside each other so the tops (+) are touching and the bottoms are touching (-), what do you get? Twelve feet, but now you can use either ladder.
    Now put the bottom of one ladder (-) on the top of another (+), now how tall is it?

    It sounds like A really tortured analogy, but it is pretty much what's happening with the batteries.
     
  2. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    But if you plug an electric motor in “backwards” the motor will run in reverse.

    Doesn’t it?

    Plus

    If you connect a battery charger up to a battery you must do it only one way - if you reverse the wires it will not charge.
     

  3. FullClip

    FullClip NRA Benefactor CLM

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    A DC motor, yes, it will run in reverse rotation.

    A single phase AC motor, nope.
     
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  4. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    Thanks -

    I recall seeing someone replace a motor on a conveyor belt - when they turned it on it ran backwards.

    I thought it was because they got the wires crossed.

    It was a long time ago - maybe I have it backwards!
     
  5. Chui

    Chui

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    That’s cool as Hell, brother!

    Now THAT is a tattoo of value.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. FullClip

    FullClip NRA Benefactor CLM

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    If they replaced the motor and it was single phase it was most likely set up at the factory for that rotation. Single phase motor rotation can be changed on an AC motor, but requires changing leads inside the motor.
    A 3-phase running the wrong way is caused by incorrct connection of the terminals.
    This is why at the power plant we always bump a new motor to check for rotation, or even an old motor if it's been disconnected.
    The saying goes something like this:
    Two wires, hook 'em up.
    Three wires, screw 'em up.
     
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  7. LEO/Dad

    LEO/Dad Navy Veteran

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    I remove the caps off my fishing boat battery before I charge it, checking acid levels. I always make sure I have some sort of glasses on before I do this.
     
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  8. Peace Warrior

    Peace Warrior Am Yisrael Chai CLM

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    The one that I heard (12v car battery) wasn't really a loud bang per se, but it was noticeable to the ear for sure. To describe it... hmmm, IDK, maybe like a gallon jug of water busting open after hitting the pavement from say 10 or 15 feet. More of a "pop sound" than a loud, shotgun like bang.

    Anyway, it happened while I was giving this guy a jump after work (he had left his lights on all day). Thank God one of his hood springs was shot and the hood itself was being kept "just open enough" by a hardhat. We were both elbows on the back of his truck talking and waiting for the battery to charge enough to crank. We both heard it. When we raised the hood the middle top half of the battery, mostly between the terminals, was blown completely free of the rest of the battery.

    I took him to get another battery, but he did not hose his truck down and not too long afterward the acid corroded the frame where the shock absorbent attached to the truck. No cell phones back then. He came in late looking like he was driving on a flat.
     
  9. LinuxLover

    LinuxLover Ba-nan-nah-nuh

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    Oh... oh! Here I come, building a watch!
    Notice... to my TL-DR Club. Stop reading right now!

    Many... not all... AC motors are reversible, but it has to be done inside the access area that will usually either have the wiring diagram inside that cover plate... or on the motors manufacturers nameplate.

    For simplicity, let's use 110VAC and 220VAC as numerical values for our available electricity in the US. Empirically, there are lots of "more correct" numerical voltages than just 110 v 220 VAC...​

    Some motors are dual voltage too.... either 120VAC or 220VAC...even 50 Hz.... available in North America. There are other... er: "forms" of 220VAC available ....... but I'll not muddy the water more with that info;.

    FWIW... if it's available and the motor is dual voltage capable... I will usually run it on 220. This keeps a lot of my heavier tools from being borrowed because most people don't have access to, nor knowledge of a 220 VAC device. The electrical plugs are twist-loc, and none of my friends have twistźloc receptacles. However, that's not my primary reason for doing so.

    220 just is better for the motor because the halved current draw per electrical leg can be run on smaller cross sectional wiring. It's of note that the US, because of history and economics, has this dual-voltage capacity unlike much of the rest of the world.

    Most US homes* run 15 Amp/14AWG wires OR 20 Amp/12AWG in the walls, and if a larger motor needs higher Amperage than 15 or 20 on a 110/117 VAC leg ..... then the existing wiring can still be used on a 220V device.

    Double the voltage and you divide the current by half on the smaller cross-sectional wires.

    This makes it easier to run a larger device since you won't have to be tearing the 12/14 AWG wires out of the walls, for replacement with 10AWG or even 8AWG copper for a heavier current draw of a 117/120 Volt device. .

    * there are many newer homes with 20Amp service. The 20 Amp receptacles will look like this...

    white-leviton-electrical-outlets-receptacles-r62-cbr20-00w-64_1000.jpg

    However... WARNING! DO NOT JUST REPLACE 15 AMP RECEPTACLES WITH 20 AMP RECEPTACLES!!!

    They require a larger wire that's capable of carrying 20 amps! That, in most situations, would be 12AWG in place of the [cheaper) 12 AWG wiring.

    You might get away with it ---> hopefully your residence will have THHN copper (not aluminum... Gawd, pray it's not aluminum!) wiring..... but your insurance underwriters will do an about-face on you if you burn your house-garage-shop-neighborhood down.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  10. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    Crap --

    I just replaced a worn out outlet - and used one of these on a 15 amp circuit. We never plug anything into it except the vacuum - and after so many years the plug just would not stay inserted - outlet was so badly worn it was loose as a goose.

    I was at Home Depot - they and a box of outlets - IIRC they were $.68 each - right by them was what looked like better quality outlet - they were $2.10 each - so I figured WTH - might as well get the better quality outlet.

    I have copper everyplace inside the house - but inside the breaker box there are some aluminum wires about as big around as my finger - can't recall - if they are the hot wires or the neutral or both.
     
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  11. FullClip

    FullClip NRA Benefactor CLM

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    Quickest way to tell the hot from neutral leads is to lick them...
     
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  12. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    Big aluminum wires are most likely the overhead service wires coming in down the mast from the pole. Do they connect to the boxes main high amperage circuit breaker, usually located at the top of the box?
     
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  13. LinuxLover

    LinuxLover Ba-nan-nah-nuh

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    TYPICALLY....
    Aluminum wires are from the pole drop and after the meter and then maybe some barrel fuses, and it will turn to aluminum again for the run into you distribution panel. Remember that aluminum isn't as good as copper in conductivity and requires significantly larger cross sectional dimension to equal copper.

    Aluminum is seriously less expensive.
    That's the motive for using it.
    Cheapness.
    I have had to remove aluminum at a few sites for high Amps end-users (usually230/3 or 480/3). It heats up and flows or deforms under the setscrews and after a lot of those heating-cooling-heating cycles it deforms sufficiently to become looser.

    Once a connex is loose it becomes resistive.... and resistance generates more heat...which causes it to deform more.... and it's a viscous cycle that ultimately leads to an electrical fire.

    From there, a quality homebuilder would generally use THHN copper... but opinions vary, zone regulations can be a hodgepodge of rules... some even get followed and wind up in your residence. Maybe. Maybe not.

    I've seen barstool inspections where the inspector drives by the new construction a week later and if it didn't burn down, it passed the "inspection".

    Before getting nervous about your 20 Amp receptacles if you've still got a 15 Amp breaker in your D-box then 15 Amps is all you're gonna get at the wall.

    You're still safe.... IF the breaker actualy works and pops at more than 15 Amps that is.

    Just dont "upgrade" the breaker to 20 Amps.
     
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  14. LinuxLover

    LinuxLover Ba-nan-nah-nuh

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    That's seriously old school logic.

    Modern caps are distilleries to capture the liberated water that happens when a battery is changing and to drip it back into the battery.

    Removing the caps allows the water to vent freely to the atmosphere, losing volume and increasing acidity. If you use a specific gravity tester on your cells, those with less water will read as very highly charged.... which will be a false flag.

    Leave the caps on.... they vent as needed and capture a high percentage of water vapor to keep the specific gravity normal.
     
  15. WeeWilly

    WeeWilly

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    Funny story from my high school days.

    In a physics lab class we were covering an introduction to AC theory. I felt well ahead of the class having just aced the DC stuff. I was talking to a classmate, explaining how things worked, told him how you could stick a paper clip into one pole of the 110v duplex and not worry as the circuit wouldn't be completed. :(

    I stuck it in, jumped back involuntarily, letting out a yelp. The physics teacher walked over and said to the whole class that was wondering what just happened, "this is a perfect example of how a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing".

    Sometimes the hardest lessons are the best. ;)
     
  16. FullClip

    FullClip NRA Benefactor CLM

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    Yup. Somewhere I still have pictures of what was left of an ABB 13.8 KV generator circuit breaker after the Spanish electricians decided to test the limit switch feedback on the ground switches. The generator was running at FSNL and excited, but they figured since it wasn't synched to the grid it would be OK. Amazed nobody was killed. Whole lot of smoke was let out.
     
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  17. LinuxLover

    LinuxLover Ba-nan-nah-nuh

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    Let me get this straight......

    You have a Ford vehicle that has 2x12 volt batteries and one failed.... which i interpret as "went open" and failed to flow in and out as an electrical load on the 12 volt alternator.... right?

    That would eliminate the whole 24v system and possibly the alternator went crazy and fried the voltage regulator... because alternators hate an open circuit and usually self destruct.

    Then somehow the alternator started producing 19 volts at a idle.... right?

    Now, I know there are both 12-and 24- volt alternators, so which did you really have?

    That your dash lights didn't flare and get brighter means that your dash taps only one 12v battery... OR .... it has an electronic system to regulate the 24v power and drops it for your 12v accessories.

    Then gouged ($$$) you for a repair... right?
    That sounds about right.
    Dealerships make all their money in the Service Department.

    So what actually happened here... I need to know... I'm writing a book..... nothing personal mind you. Just the facts please
     
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  18. LinuxLover

    LinuxLover Ba-nan-nah-nuh

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    We were required to test our emergency generators at the hospital I worked at.... usually on an early 4AM third Thursday of the month.

    It was always an all hands evolution, even our secretary had to be there.

    Johnson Control had just replaced all the 15 HP air handlers with 7 HP motors, but failed to change out the 15 HP heaters.

    One night.... and ON MY BOILER WATCH... we singled-up from Edison when they lost just 1 of the 25KVA fuses on the pole.

    I thought this was an unannounced test of my skills to repair a life-death CASREP.... i mean, it WAS a Thursday morning after all..... and the chief engineer was full of surprises anyway. I just didn't see anyone else of the rest of the crew peeking at me over the boilers or from the windows in the Chief Engineer's office.

    On my blinking annunciator board, every one of those new motors was trying to run on one leg ..... and all 40 of them fried! It only took less than a minute for 230/3 motors to cook.

    I couldn't worry about some motors... but I had to get the E-Power generators (4 of them) UP, FS/NL, 60 Hz, and do it fast!

    Our 25KVA drop-out had "thought" everything was OK, and it failed to call for the emergency generators. I had to go into the vault and D-C the 25KVA bridge, manually.

    Talk about arcing, electrum and scorching sounds .... Crap... that was exciting. I can still smell all the Ozone!
     
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  19. wrenrj1

    wrenrj1

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    I wanna know when I get my oil changed at the dealership, why they can't put that red rubber cover back on the battery terminal when they test the battery...
     
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  20. Blanton

    Blanton

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    I'm a medical person but even to me that seems to me like a foolish thing to even consider. Why would anyone even think about it?