Steel treatment at Glock Austria

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by switch625, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. switch625

    switch625 S. S. Squirrel

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    Has it ever been confirmed Glock stop using Tennifer in Austria? If so what are they using now? What about the USA factory?
     
  2. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    No one knows for sure. I'm not even sure Glock knows.
     
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  3. TexasPOff

    TexasPOff "Tactical Elf"

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    Glock stopped using Tenifer both in Austria and on USA made glocks back during the Gen 4.

    They use a PVD process now, although the recipe has changed from the finish they used on the Gen 4.

    The current Gen 5 finishes, black, silver, and the 19X coyote finish are all PVD type finishes.

    The new finishes, are exactly that, a finish applied to the metal. The older Tenifer was a treatment applied to the metal. The black coloration was an oxide finish that was applied after the tenifer treatment.

    It has been said Glock stopped using Tenifer due to regulations and nasty by products produced from the process. While some, all or none of those may be true, the older process required two stages.

    The new PVD finishes are a single stage process, and thus more cost efficient. PVD finishes, while not as corrosion resistant or durable as the older finish, are not bad finishes.




    TXPO
     
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  4. switch625

    switch625 S. S. Squirrel

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    Damn, that blows. No wonder we're seeing so many rusted Glocks.

    TxPO, how did you verify this?
     
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  5. TexasPOff

    TexasPOff "Tactical Elf"

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    I have a few contacts at Glock.

    This question has been asked in just about every armorers course I have attended as well. Some of the instructors have much better information than others.

    I have a couple instructors I specifically request when we host armorers course for that very reason.



    TXPO
     
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  6. Made in Austria

    Made in Austria

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    Since Glock is using the PVD treatment, I doubt that Glock is still nitriding the slides. The PVD treatment alone changes the steel on a atomic level making it very corrosion resistant and very durable on the surface. Metals are vaporized and then bond to the steel atom by atom. For example, a brass finish is Zirconium Nitride and has a hardness of 80 on the Rockwell scale.

    To the mental treatment, Tenifer, Tufftride, Melonite etc. are just brand names. They all do the same thing, which is to Nitride/case-harden the steel by diffusing nitrogen into the steels surface. This alone forms an black oxide layer on the steel, but is often additionally Parkerized/finished to make the black look nicer.

    If done correctly, it doesn't matter if salt bath nitriding, gas nitriding or plasma nitriding is used to diffuse the nitrogen into the steel. Plasma, gas and salt baths are just nitrogen donator mediums.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  7. BuckeyeGlock77

    BuckeyeGlock77

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    Judas, I suddenly realize I shouldn’t have slept through chemistry class. I feel inadequate ;)
     
  8. Jagr

    Jagr Czech Sensation Millennium Member

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    Gas nitride. Current Pre Gen5
    nDLC Gen5
    PVD Non black
     
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  9. TexasPOff

    TexasPOff "Tactical Elf"

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    It does get confusing, especially when you start adding trade names to the processes.

    The easiest way to remember is the older finish, Tenifer, used a liquid as the medium for carrying the chemicals used to treat the steel. The item was submersed in the liquid for treatment. It was also considered a treatment, not a finish. When the slide were treated, they were still a natural steel color. Again older glocks black or dark grey coloration was an oxide finish applied after the tenifer treatment.

    The newer PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) finishes, ION Bond, TiN, etc. uses a gas as the medium for carrying the finishing product that coats the item. There are several ways to apply the finish, but they all use gas instead of a liquid. This is a treatment that also finishes the metal, or leaves a coating. It can however change the base metals characteristics, depending on the application type, specifically the temperature in which it is applied.

    Here is a chart of some of the PVD coatings, individual names, and colorations.
    Note: what this company calls Black Cat, is a type of DLC type finish like Glock uses on the Gen 5.

    [​IMG]


    TXPO
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  10. cciman

    cciman

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    In the world of industrial metallurgy, the former Austrian process steel treatment was nothing special just shiny packaging and branding name to impress the consumer.
    Similar process is being done in any larger US city with industrial centers (3 places here in Cincinnati can do chemical metal treatments).

    That environmental restriction was pure myth.

    Missing Tenifer is like missing Tab or RC, you'll be ok.
     
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  11. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    Amen! Tenifer (Melonite and Tufftride are the same product with different regional marketing names sold by Hef Durferrit) are all legal, and all done by lots of places. Glock simply found a way they like better (is it to get away from salt baths, or cost, or quality, or physical appearance, or time required? Have to ask Glock!). But the process is alive and well in the metal industry (automotive parts, etc.).

    Why Glock changed is a mystery, but they had their reasons (and it probably involves saving money!).

    In the end, if the guns are performing okay, it is a non-issue. For many, it feels dirty, like using MIM parts, but both are viable parts of supply chain cost savings and material process adaptations to survive in an increasingly competitive landscape. They can be done exceptionally well or with really low quality, and that falls to quality control, not the process chosen.
     
  12. cciman

    cciman

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    Market/financial realities dictate what is chosen in life.
    As a consumer, Look at your kitchen pantry. Sure, we would all love flank steak and Heinz, but sometimes that "Salisbury" steak and generic ketchup is what will be "good enuff".

    As production cost goes up (tariffs, labor, materials, shipping, regulations...whatever) companies will make alternative choices to adjust to maintain pricing while also protecting the profit.
     
  13. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    WHAT!?!?! Never compromise! Bugatti's, Patek Phillippe's, Wagyu beef, and hand-selected, single barrel, custom crafted, carefully aged Heinz Ketchup for all!!!

    Glock is a company, and you are correct. They manage costs, and pick adequate solutions (the "best" isn't the norm for public consumption!). Cost efficiency and cost cutting are different animals. MIM is good enough for the best-of-the-best turbine blades in the most sophisticated aircraft engines, and MIM is also a way to make junk parts quickly and cheaply. It all depends upon how it is used, the stringency of the users requirements, and how much they are willing to spend (and ultimately sell, as they pass along the costs to the final buyer) for small incremental increases in quality.

    Tenifer was great. But costs need to be managed and (as you point out), Glock is not immune to those pressures! We got the "good enough" solution. And it is.
     
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  14. ricklee4570

    ricklee4570

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    So, is this new finish process that Glock is using now as durable and as rust free as the old process?
     
  15. Made in Austria

    Made in Austria

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    No one knows for sure. A salt spray test over several days, weeks or even months would show how corrosion resistant their new treatment is.

    Maybe there are some YouTube weapon operators who will gladly torture test their new Glocks soon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  16. Gino

    Gino Millennium Member

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    Unfortunately, you are completely wrong. The Tennifer finish that Glock used to use was the best gun finish I have ever seen. I don't know of any other gun manufacturers that have used a similar process on their firearms. I have two older Glocks that have been sweat all over and there isn't a bit of rust anywhere. I wish that all gun manufacturers used a treatment like that!
     
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  17. alnicoG22

    alnicoG22

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    I am impressed that the finish on my 2003 G22 looks brand new.
     
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  18. cciman

    cciman

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    If I made you an RC rum and cola, told you I used Coke, and you thought they were the BEST/WORST you ever had, then you would be forever thinking that COKE made the best/worst rum and cola drinks.
    Placebo, and confirmation bias.

    I sweat over non-Tennifer finishes all the time and they do just fine, even phosphorus.

    Blinding of the observer is vital for REAL conclusions.
     
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  19. GlockFan7

    GlockFan7

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    The same treatments have been used concurrently on both Gen 3 and Gen 4 throughout, depending on the time period. There has never been a distinction between the two as far as Gen 3 vs Gen 4 was concerned or even later with the 42 and 43. Also, you're confusing metal treatment with metal finish. The metal is treated (reference the OP's original question), then a coating is applied. PVD or more accurately DLC is a finish, Not a metal treatment. If you were to completely remove the finish from a Glock, the metal treatment is still there.
     
  20. Mister X

    Mister X

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    You can always simply call Glock in Austria. I have before. They told me they stopped using Tenifer. I’m not sure you can get a more definitive answer.