close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Squat?

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning' started by D.S.Brown, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. D.S.Brown

    D.S.Brown Millennium Member

    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 1999
    Location:
    North Texas
    I need a viable substitute for squats!

    Back in '98 I tore my left ACL. Had surgery that September. The surgeon was a good sports medicine guy. Said don't do squats.

    Fast forward to 2006.

    I am trying to get on with Dallas Police Department. I've decided that I must be serious about fat loss but I am so not in the cardio only camp about such. Primarily because I want to maintain and develope strength while losing weight.

    I have gone to a power lifters workout to achieve this adding bent over rows for the back. I super set Push-ups/Pull-ups (warm-up), BenchPress/Deadlifts, Squats/Bentover Rows. All are done with 5 sets of 5. Max Weight used is 140lbs presently. Off days I do 40 minutes interval cardio and work core muscles.

    I know this is a lot of info. I am experiencing pain in my left knee, but I hate to give up the Squats. Thus my original question. I am looking for alternatives to the squat and/or a change in my technique that will allow me to continue to do Squats.

    Thanks,

    Dave
     
  2. GLOCK23DK

    GLOCK23DK

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Hinckley, Ohio
    You could give leg presses a try. some people dont like squats. also, you may want to try to strengthen your knees, leg extensions and leg curls, so that the ACL injury has less of a chance of ever being an issue during your career as a police officer.
     

  3. DBradD

    DBradD

    Messages:
    2,848
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    You might also see another doctor for an opinion about what types of exercises are ok. I'm not so sure that the other typical options (leg presses, hack squats, etc.) are much less stressful for the knees. Also, all squats are not created equal--wide stance, close stance, going very low, front squats, etc., so maybe some variation might work out ok. You could also ask your doctor is it reasonable to think you can rehab your knee to the point that it's fairly normal, and if so, how. What do pro athletes do in cases like this? Surely they don't give up on squats, etc. after they recover. Maybe they do, for all I know. What about bodyweight-only squats? Are they supposedly bad too?
     
  4. malkore

    malkore

    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    I jacked my left knee up on leg presses once. after some time off, I did squats and my knee felt better.

    first off, make sure you get a trainer to look over your squat form, and make sure that is perfect.
    too narrow a stance, or trying to pull the knees in when they should be allowed to flair out and stay in line with the toes will aggrivate knees.
     
  5. GLOCK23DK

    GLOCK23DK

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Hinckley, Ohio
    Best advice, find someone in person that knows what they are doing, like a trainer or a physical therapist or a doctor etc, and ask them what to do. It's easy for everyone and their brother to spout off the information that they have read in Men's Health and Muscle & Fitness on an internet forum, but Id be willing to bet most of us here are not certified in any way shape or form. Certifiable, maybe. But not certified.

    When you do find someone to talk to, make sure they teach you the PROPER way to do squats. There is a proper way, and if done correctly, your hamstrings will provide a natural stop in your descent, and will not allow you to go much past parallel (thighs parallel to the ground). Anyone who tells you otherwise, knows nothing of the physiology and kinesiology of your bones and muscles and their advice must be dealt with accordingly.
     
  6. California Jack

    California Jack Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 1999
    Where did yo get this? Proper squatting can be done to all different depths. A power-lifting squat looks much different in form and depth than a high-bar style Oly squat. The PL squat is slightly under parallel and the Oly squat will be arse to ankles. Both are proper. Look at this clip of Yuri Vlasov squatting....
    http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/e_movie_theater.asp?vclip=36

    Are you going to tell me the Russians don't know about squatting?


    GFH,

    I think you should look into what DBD said. Try different forms of squatting. Try full depth rock bottom squats. Despite what previous posters have said, a lot of people find that this form of squatting is easier on the knees because it doesn't require the knees to be involved in braking at the bottom. If you have been squatting in that style, stop a little higher, perhaps it is a ROM thing. Try front squatting or even Overhead squating. If they don't work try the Hack squat or maybe zerchers or Jefferson lifts. Try different stance widths and feet angles. One thing for sure, make sure your knees track in the same direction that your feet are pointing.

    Hopefully you can find something that works and prove the Doctor wrong. But, if all else fails I'd try trap bar deadlifts and as a last resort, the leg press.

    Good luck,
    Jack
     
  7. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    9,730
    Likes Received:
    2,860
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    Wow. I've been doing squats since about the time you were making mustard in your shorts, but I apparently have been doing squats wrong all this time. Today, I was squatting about three inches below parallel, but somehow my hamstrings didn't stop me where they were supposed to. What about Olympic lifters? Remember when one (Suleymanoglu?) was redlighted because his butt hit the floor on a snatch? Every weightlifter (not weight trainer, but competitor in the sport of weightlifting) squats far below parallel. I guess those squats I did at over 700 pounds when competing in powerlifting (and was told by the refs that I didn't need to go so deep) had something wrong, too. Did I also teach all those people who I helped to squat over double bodyweight in under a year wrong, too?
     
  8. DBradD

    DBradD

    Messages:
    2,848
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    If there's one thing I've learned in the H&F Forum it's that there's no one "proper" or "correct" answer for any question. There are simply too many different goals that folks are going after.

    Come on guys, don't beat him up too badly. It would be nice if we went from 5 H&F Forum regulars to 6!
     
  9. GLOCK23DK

    GLOCK23DK

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Hinckley, Ohio
    What ever works for you brotha. Im strictly speaking from a kinesiological/physiological standpoint. The way I described is how your body works. However, there are those out there that push beyond the limits of the human body, and thats great. Those are usually the largest/strongest people around, but I would be willing to bet that injuries are more prevalent in people who squat past parallel, past their natural stop, than in those who adhere to the physiological rules of the human body.

    To each his own. If youre competing in power lifting competitions, then by all means, *** to the floor. Everyone else does it, why shouldnt you assimilate. 20 years from now, you can all go in to the same knee surgeon together. For people trying to stay strong, and have knees left to play with their grand kids, I wouldnt recommend squatting past parallel.

    The guy that started this thread seemed like he just wanted to get his legs strong, and prevent further injury to an already compromised ACL. I gave him my advice, EVERYONE else is welcome to give him theirs. And if internet forums have taught us anything, everyone else will do just that.

    I dont know anyone's level of education on the matter, but I know my own, and I know that for myself, and anyone that I train, I would not teach them to go past parallel.
     
  10. Glock'n

    Glock'n

    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    I've been squatting for almost 14 years now! If you squat correctly you should never, never feel any pain in your knees. Your knees should never go past your feet when you squat. If they do your not doing them right. I have always squatted deep, way below parallel and I have big legs. I don't claim to squat a lot. The most I've ever done has been 500 lbs. I work out normally in the 300-400 lb range most of the time. Mix it up do high reps for a couple of weeks, medium reps for 6-8, and then throw in some low reps for 3-6. This way your legs won't get use to the same thing all the time. You gotta love to work out your legs or it doesn't work. That is why you don't see a lot of people training their legs. It's hard work!

    If I couldn't squat I would leg press. You can get a lot of these and do a lot more weight than you can when you squat. The trick is to really go deep with these like squats and you will get a lot more out of it. Another thing you could do is lunges with db's. These will work your thighs. It doesn't take a lot of weight either.

    Good luck bro!
     
  11. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    9,730
    Likes Received:
    2,860
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    One of my training partners has been squatting below parallel for 40 years and has never had so much as any knee pain, let alone an injury. Actually, I have never run across anyone who had a knee injury from squatting that wasn't from twisting. Powerlifting-style squats, especially, put very little shear force on the knees, since there is only about 95 degrees of flexion. Olympic squats shear more, but I still don't believe that any elite trainer or high-level sports physician who works with elite lifters thinks that they cause injury.
     
  12. malkore

    malkore

    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    I find I naturally 'fall' into a perfect squat form when I started wearing Chuck Taylor's for squatting.

    wrestling shoes work great too, anything that laces tight and has a flat sole, rather than a thicker heel than toe.
     
  13. DBradD

    DBradD

    Messages:
    2,848
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Wow, sometimes I think you and I were born on different planets! ;)

    I found wrestling shoes to be very good for deadlifts, but I could never tolerate them for squats. I used really good high-top basketball shoes (circa 1988) for squats and that worked better for me.

    I guess the bottom line is to try different things to see what helps the individual.
     
  14. California Jack

    California Jack Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 1999
    SCREW YOU DBD! I'm leaving! Nah....just kidding.

    In all seriousness, one of the problems with Forums like this is that tone can't be commiunicated well. I certainly meant nothing ill in my response.



    I'm not sure this is completely correct. There is a style of squatting where it is considered improper to let your knees past your toes is usually a PL style with a wider stance. For some, it isn't a safety/knee health issue though, it is to recruit the hams and glutes more than the quads so more weight can be used. Yet others think it is a knee health issue. However, there is research that says it is safer to let the toes go slightly past the knees. Fred Hatfield for one says it is better that way. Here is an article that may shed some light on this issue........ http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html


    MArk Rippetoe is one of the first NCSA Cerstified Strength and Conditioning Coach as well as a USAW certified Level III coach and published author. Mark said the following:

    "Anyone who says that full squats are 'bad for the knees' has, with that statement, demonstrated conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion about the matter.

    People who know nothing about a topic, especially a very technical one that requires specific training, knowledge, and experience, are not due an opinion about that topic and are better served by being quiet when it is asked about or discussed. For example, when brain surgery, or string theory, or the NFL draft, or women's dress sizes, or white wine is being discussed, I remain quiet... But seldom is this the case when orthopedic surgeons, athletic trainers, physical therapists, or nurses are asked about full squats. Most such people have absolutely no idea what a full squat even is, and they certainly have no concept of how it affects the knees, unless they have had additional training beyond their specialties, which for the professions mentioned does not include full squats. Because if these people knew anything about squatting and the difference between a full squat and any other kind of squat and what they do to the knees, they would know that 'full squats are bad for the knees' is wrong and thus would not be making such a ridiculous statement."

    Mark Rippetoe, author of Starting Strength, "Going Deep". Crossfit Journal September 2006: 6.



    Here is an article that is well foot noted and documented regarding squat depth and knee helath....... http://www.strengthsyndicate.com/fi...at.pdf#search="squat depth knee ariel arioch"

    or try this link if that other doesn't work, it is the same article...
    http://www.midwestbarbell.com/articles/squat.htm

    I've read a lot about this subject. But to me I was convinced most by anectdotal evidence. Weightlifters squat A2G all the time and with huge weights yet they seldom have knee problems. They may develop shoulder or elbow problems but that most certainly isn't fom squatting.

    Jack
     
  15. GLOCK23DK

    GLOCK23DK

    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Hinckley, Ohio
    To quote a very wise man, "Whatever works for ya brotha."
     
  16. D.S.Brown

    D.S.Brown Millennium Member

    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 1999
    Location:
    North Texas
    Thanks to everyone who contributed. I got a lot of good information. I'm gonna ease off the squats for a few weeks and utilize individual leg movements. Simialrly I am going to boost my HIT cardio sessions. Carrying extra weight up top is certainly not helping my knee. Again thanks for the input.

    Best,
    Dave
     
  17. Jack Walcott

    Jack Walcott

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Location:
    Florida
    Get a copy of Starting Strength. It goes into great detail about squat form, deadlift form, powerclean form, bench press form and OHP form. Its really a great reference book. There is also information on building your own program. Definitely worth the money. You can get a copy from Amazon. I like to do all my lifting in wresting shoes. HTH, Jack