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Mr. CISSP, CISA
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Discussion Starter #1
I am being told two different things.

1. Go all the way down until the thy touches the calf.
2. Don't go all the way down, stop when the leg makes an l shape. Even put something so your butt touches it and you can't go all the way down.

Which is right?
Why?
 

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ass to grass. Full range of motion is always best because, well, its full range of motion. If your body natural will go all the way down (I.e. no pain, etc) why wouldnt you train for full range of motion? It should be like that with every lift.
 

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Mr. CISSP, CISA
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Discussion Starter #3
Thoughts?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfQk88LZcu4"]How deep should you squat? - YouTube[/ame]
 

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Parallel or a bit below, limited by how low you can go without starting to round your back.

Rippetoe is the man for questions like this. The following is a good start.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLsnhIBTjaU"]Mark Rippetoe - The Squat And The Hamstring - YouTube[/ame]
 

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Too long. LOL. I only made it a couple of minutes in, but what he said by then sounded OK.

As Rippetoe explains at length in Starting Strength (highly recommended book), a proper squat is about more than depth. It has to do with engaging hamstrings to keep the knee balanced also. Rip's videos are awesome, so I'd recommend checking them out.
 

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Mr. CISSP, CISA
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Discussion Starter #6
I have a feeling I am doing something wrong because my knees are sore and the leg muscles are not.

I am 4 weeks in building up. Only at 78 pounds (building slowly).
 

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You probably need to watch several Rippetoe videos on squat form. It's not obvious how to do these correctly so you'll gain strength and not hurt yourself. If your inner-thigh and hamstring muscles are sore, that's a clue you're doing them correctly.

From your quick description, I'm guessing you're doing more of a deep-knee-bend which isn't engaging your hamstrings and butt enough. The forces on your knee are unbalanced which might cause pain unless you have very strong knees.
 

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ass to grass. Full range of motion is always best because, well, its full range of motion. If your body natural will go all the way down (I.e. no pain, etc) why wouldnt you train for full range of motion? It should be like that with every lift.
This. Squatting a deeply as you can go is proper. If you can only go parallel, that's fine but work on your flexibility too. Ass to grass is a completely natural motion. It places less stress on your knees and engages more of the muscles required to lift the weight.

I didn't watch your video, but based on the diagram that appears to be a high bar squat, meaning the bar rides high on the neck. It forces you forward and on your toes - as in the diagram. Do low bar squats. Let the bar run on the natural shelf that your traps make. Besides being more comfortable, it keeps your center more to the rear and on balance. Drive with your heels. Widening your stance will also help with depth. And please don't squat on the Smith Machine...
 

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Mr. CISSP, CISA
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Discussion Starter #9
You probably need to watch several Rippetoe videos on squat form. It's not obvious how to do these correctly so you'll gain strength and not hurt yourself. If your inner-thigh and hamstring muscles are sore, that's a clue you're doing them correctly.

From your quick description, I'm guessing you're doing more of a deep-knee-bend which isn't engaging your hamstrings and butt enough. The forces on your knee are unbalanced which might cause pain unless you have very strong knees.
I watched several. Still not sure if left am doing it right.

Assuming you are correct, what do I need to change?
 

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Mr. CISSP, CISA
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Discussion Starter #10
This. Squatting a deeply as you can go is proper. If you can only go parallel, that's fine but work on your flexibility too. Ass to grass is a completely natural motion. It places less stress on your knees and engages more of the muscles required to lift the weight.

I didn't watch your video, but based on the diagram that appears to be a high bar squat, meaning the bar rides high on the neck. It forces you forward and on your toes - as in the diagram. Do low bar squats. Let the bar run on the natural shelf that your traps make. Besides being more comfortable, it keeps your center more to the rear and on balance. Drive with your heels. Widening your stance will also help with depth. And please don't squat on the Smith Machine...
Why as a to grass?

Riptide says that is wrong?
 

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Why as a to grass?

Riptide says that is wrong?
That answer is in my reply. I wouldn't think of it as "wrong."
People will always have different philosophies on the proper way. Deep is better. No offense to Rippetoe, smart guy, but you will find more people who say go deep. That video is from a Crossfit certification class but if you watch the games you'll see all of the competitors squat deep when doing them. Watch some of the best squatters lift, such as John Cena and Mariusz Pudzianowski. Two examples of perfect form.
 

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I watched several. Still not sure if left am doing it right.

Assuming you are correct, what do I need to change?
It's fairly complicated, but I'll try to summarize.

Use a low bar position as shown in the Rippetoe videos. It might take some work to develop shoulder and elbow flexibility to achieve a good position.

As you begin to descend, your knees will go forward and butt will go backward. Don't let your knees go very far forward. Concentrate on sitting back into the squat, placing the work onto your hamstrings and butt.

Go as low as you can without your back starting to round. Parallel is OK. Lower is OK also, if you're flexible enough. (Probably not. Most adults aren't.) The easiest way to hurt your back doing squats is to let it round under load. It should maintain a slight arch.

Here's a key: At the bottom position, your knees are at a small distance out in front of your toes. When you start to drive up, don't let your knees wander forward during that initial push. Rip refers to the correct way as "hip drive." In the Karwoski video I show in the following post, note how his knees don't travel forward as he starts his push out of the hole.

More videos will probably be more helpful than my verbal description.

There's also a Q&A forum at the following. Some post their own videos for Rip's critique. You might consider video recording yourself from the side. Compare your video to some of the trainee videos, and see what Rip told them. You can post a video here, and we'll try to help, but we're amateurs.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=129
 

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... Watch some of the best squatters lift, such as John Cena and Mariusz Pudzianowski. Two examples of perfect form.
Parallel is quite low.

Either of those guys could break me in half, so I'm not criticizing either.

Pudzianowski's squat are above parallel in the following (I'm sure he knows and doesn't care. LOL):
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEJ6HZX6pTY"]Mariusz Pudzianowski legs workout - YouTube[/ame]

Cena's are a little below.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyihD0D8sW0"]WWE Superstar John Cena Squats 495lbs While Training With Antonio Cesaro - YouTube[/ame]

I think Karwoski is at about parallel in the following:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1tU1YqPp0"]Kirk Karwoski Squats 1,000x2 - YouTube[/ame]
 

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IMHO the high bar (Olympic squat) is what most people should train. There are so many variables with regard to an individual it is impossible to just say just do x and you will be good.

On the one hand, squatting is easy and everyone should be able to do it. On the other, it takes time, reps and thought to be good at it especisally under a heavy load.
 

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Parallel is quite low.

Either of those guys could break me in half, so I'm not criticizing either.

Pudzianowski's squat are above parallel in the following (I'm sure he knows and doesn't care. LOL):
Mariusz Pudzianowski legs workout - YouTube

Cena's are a little below.
WWE Superstar John Cena Squats 495lbs While Training With Antonio Cesaro - YouTube

I think Karwoski is at about parallel in the following:
Kirk Karwoski Squats 1,000x2 - YouTube
In my opinion Pud's squats are just a tad deeper than parallel. Pause Pud's video at 1:09. Both him and Cena go about as low as they can, which is all I was advocating. To each his own. Thanks for posting the videos. You can see Pud get a little bounce at the lowest point. He's bottomed out. Here's another of Cena. Pause it at 3:21. Good depth. In competition they only have to go parallel for the rep to count.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xVjQulQscA"]John Cena and Mark Bell - YouTube[/ame]
 

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Those guys are awesome.

I remember seeing a video of Pudzianowski in MMA a couple of years ago. Looked like a grizzly bear attacking someone. :rofl:

Have a good day.
Brad
 

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Any thread is a good excuse to show a bunch of awesome feats of strength!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVXdamI2_A"]Kirk Karwoski - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AtnWZykK94"]Ed Coan 1019 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwzXjry6s6g"]Eric Spoto 722 lbs (327.5 kg) World Record Raw Bench Press - Official Video | SuperTraining.TV - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQexpyc4Nas"]Heaviest Deadlifts in Human History - YouTube[/ame]
 

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I personally think the only reason to do low bar squats is to handle more weight. (All of my squat PRs are low bar).

Fred Hatfield "Dr Squat" says train high bar, and use low bar in competition. (haha had to drop a name in here)

High bar may work best for most people. Its more comfortable and puts less stress on the lower back since you can stay more upright.

As a training cue to keep your knees from shooting out over your toes, think about sitting back, not down. Like you are going to sit down on a chair behind you.

At the beginning descent of a squat, it starts with a break at the HIPS, not at the knees. Think about shooting your butt backwards.

Don't let your knees cave in, force them out when coming up out of the hole.

Ass to grass is fine, if you can do it correctly. Too many people round their back and relax the hams when going below parallel. They just don't know it.

Just my 2 cents. (which is worth about half that) :tongueout:
 
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