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Squadding Question?

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by frankt, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. frankt

    frankt

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    This is my first year shooting GSSF and I still do not have a handle on everything.
    I shot my first matches this year, Conyers,Griffin,Dawsonville and Conyers again and I am still confused on procedures.

    If they use the Christmas tree arrangement for score sheets, I don't see any purpose of signing into all three stages first. If you sign in at Glock M at 9am and then sign in and shoot two other stages and then come back to shoot Glock M, they put your score sheet on the bottom of the tree.
    How is this different than if I just walked in cold and signed up and my score sheet went to the bottom of the tree?

    I just don't see the big picture on this, can somebody set me straight?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Njanear

    Njanear Nagant-ophile

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    You will still get put ahead of any other person that did the same as you when you throw your X on there before them (not that it buys you any extra movement ahead of others).

    Some people put an X on their entry that has a very long wait (which puts their sheets on the tree) but then they sneak over to another line that they have already registered in that goes quickly. I did this once at Conyers 2 years ago, when the 5 To Glock was taking absolutley forever but the plates were zooming by (no need to sticker, no questioning the scoring, etc.). I don't know if you can do that across all 3 events though - I am sure someone else may come by and tell us how to do that. :supergrin:

    Today at the shoot, the crowd was fairly light and the ROs were doing a pretty good job, so I didn't even consider doing it. If more people would have helped paste at the Glock M and 5 To Glock, it would have been any faster. :whistling:
     

  3. ede

    ede Bama's Friend

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    the sign in sheet is like senority, the closer to the top you are the quicker your name gets called. Th RO doing the squadding will, or should, work from the top of the list downward calling names with a X next to them.
     
  4. Justin1911

    Justin1911

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    It's not any different, that's why I don't sign in at all the stages. It's pointless to do so.

    In 4 years of shooting GSSF I've only seen it done according to the rules outlined in the Glockreport 1x and that was at Fort Benning. It's no big deal to me how it's done, I'm fine with walking up, telling the RO I'm staying to shoot and my sheet goes to the bottom of the tree. However, the way to squad outlined in the rules says that the RO's would "build" a squad based on who signed in at what time - then shoot that squad and wait until there are only a few shooters left - then "build" another squad again based on who signed in eariler. This would require that they not just hand out score sheets to any shooter coming up to shoot, they would actually wait and start calling out names to squad based on the check marks by people's names. It took me a year or two, but I figured out nobody was doing it this way.

    Sorry if it sounds bad, but it may be a little too complicated for most RO's to grasp. I think the way squadding is done now works just fine. On a side note - I only waited about 10 minutes on plates and an hour each on the M and 5TG yesterday at Conyers in the middle of the day for the biggest match of the year, not bad at all I think.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  5. ede

    ede Bama's Friend

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    Justin is correct, more times than not score sheet are more or less randomly handed out. I've got burnt more than a few times waiting on my name to be called after putting the X in the correct box when the RO builds a squad only to find out they aren't following any sort of rule or order, other than random. I've see na few ROs with system, but it was pretty much only known to them. I've got placed at the end of the line, and forgotten and I've got moved in front of other shooters and could never figure out what the ROs were doing.
     
  6. Glockrunner

    Glockrunner HOOYA DEEPSEA

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    It is a good system that works well and in the advantage of the shooter, IF THE RO can follow the procedure and read names.

    It appears to me that they get lazy and don't want to help the shooters get in a fair order on the tree.

    Here is an example: short and sweet.

    1. I signed in well before you walked up to a stage and told the RO you were ready to shoot. You're told to sign in and place a "X" by your name.

    2. I walk up and place a "X" by my name well ahead of yours.

    3. When the RO has sufficient room on the board he starts at the top of the first sign-in sheet and looks for names that have "X"'s and calls out those "X"ed names and gives those people their sheet. Then places them on the tree, in the order they were on the sign in sheet, and the deed is done.

    I am ahead of you.

    It isn't fair for a shooter that shows up two hours before the match is over, to shoot thur the match while others have been there since 0900 helping and working the match progress to have to wait on the new shows.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  7. frankt

    frankt

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    What really had me thinking was about 1:00 or so on Saturday, staff came around posting a sign in every bay stating"sign in at all three stages first" and I thought to my self "what possible difference can that make.

    Glockrunner, I see it as you are explaining it. If the RO took the top X'd names by time to form a squad, a late comer who signed in might not make that squad and they would have to wait for a later squad to shoot.

    I am not in a big hurry to finish when I go to a GSSF event but it is disheartening when you see 10 or 12 people who were not there before you come in and shoot before you.
     
  8. Glockrunner

    Glockrunner HOOYA DEEPSEA

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    Nor,am I. I am ready to spend the day if I have too but it has never happened until the Oxford match, last year. And that was do to squadding issues AND the failure of a couple Plate racks. We ended up with an unexpected hotel room that night.

    I see RPGMAN shot the upper stages (next to the new parking lot). Those folks who ran that know how to run the sign-in so he most likely cycled thru the match much faster than my group.

    We stayed in the lower section to see and experience the shows, etc but never got to because of the poorly run sign-ins.
     
  9. SARDG

    SARDG

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    That was the 'M' Bay I was working and you and Pat came along later and pitched in. But that bay got a bad start unfortunately - it was understaffed from the get-go, then 2 Christmas trees were built with only enough initial staff to run one stage. Then the sign-in RO was ordering shooter's scoresheets on the tree by when they walked up to the sign-in table - not by the inital sign-in times with an X by their name. She thought that was a more 'fair' way of doing it. I found this out when a lady who knew squadding procedures was vocally upset when her early-morning check-in and subsequent X ended up placing her at the bottom of the tree below new walk-ups. I believe the real problem was that our sign-in RO wasn't forming actual squads - just simply adding shooters to the bottom. Squads of about 8 people seems to be the key to success. I will try to be more proactive next time and be certain everyone understands the procedures - first thing. I suppose I should have checked with her first thing, to be certain she understood procedure, but knowing how this squading is perpetually fubab, I think I buried my head in the sand and just ran the shooters as they were called to the line.

    Chris and Scott I think, eventually came over and put Humpty-Dumpty together again - and Chris stayed and RO'ed for a time to help catch up.
     
  10. Glockrunner

    Glockrunner HOOYA DEEPSEA

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    Scott (GSSF) and I fixed the problem after Pat & I arrived. I got the "stack" finally run thru and she and I trained on the right procedure. Some time after the lunch break, she left, never to return and it went back to the same mess again I was informed (by another RO).

    When we had it running good we were actually calling and notifying the ON DECK and IN THE HOLE Shooters of their positions in the line up so we knew they were ready and we could introduce the next shooter to the RO at the stage.
     
  11. rpgman

    rpgman SCGLOCK

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    I did, I waited about 45 minutes to shoot both the 5 to Glock and the Glock M and I shot all 3 divisions in each...not bad...

    Pete and others had it running right....squadding people correctly.
    That's the ONLY reason I shot up in the parking lot, even though Pete told me down in the other bays, it was wide open....I just felt comfortable with the guys and gals running the bays at the parking lot 5 to Glock and the Glock M.

    ANd, then I walked over to the plates next door and waited maybe 30 minutes to shoot.

    I was done shooting at about 1:45pm and we got there at about 9:30am, but we mingled for a while at Ed's and inside registration talking with people I met at the Columbia, SC match.
    Greg
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  12. SARDG

    SARDG

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    Thanks Bob. I actually didn't remember exactly when you and Pat initially showed up. After the initial morning mess, Chris and Scott (GSSF) showed up and were there around the table with many other people, shifting scoresheets around.

    As I said, next time I am going over this with the sign-in RO before we send a round downrange.

    The original scorekeeper and sign-in ROs that I initially worked with went to lunch, and then to the Challenge. They eventually came back, but the heat and sun was getting to Jan and she largely sat-out the late afternoon.

    Since you and Pat worked anyway, you may as well make it official next time.
     
  13. bustedknee

    bustedknee The Snowflakes have invaded GT

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    The procedure makes sense and works, if you understand it.

    When the RO's don't understand it, it creates problems for everyone.

    When the shooters do not understand it, they simply try to point out to the rest of us that it is not really necessary.
     
  14. ron59

    ron59 Bustin Caps

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    I'm not a fan of it. One could show up early and sign up, then head back to the air conditioned building and shoot the breeze for a few hours. Then walk back and say "I'm here, put me in the front of the line! "

    I think the way most places "do" it, is because it makes the most sense from a logical and fair approach. Ever wonder why so many places that do it wrong end up all doing it the same (pretty much) wrong way?

    I'm all for rules, but only ones that make sense. To *me* the written gssf squadding rule makes no sense. And in 16 events, think I've only seen it used once. Time to put that one to bed.

    Granted, I have seen some VERY BAD ways of doing it that were annoying, but the majority of the time, I've had no issues with "the wrong way".
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  15. SARDG

    SARDG

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    That's true... but I believe most people don't work it that way. We already had people out of (GSSF) order and the rule-followers hostile by 0930. That shows me that the group who were following the rules were sticking around the bays to shoot and those who walked up in-between were inserted within the queue.

    We may never know if the GSSF system truly works as it apparently has never (or rarely) been followed... I think it could work though.
     
  16. ron59

    ron59 Bustin Caps

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    How can there be "rule followers" when no place follows the rules? There might be people who would LIKE to see the rules followed, but I don't usually hear that complaint.

    If the
    group I bolded was there and on the board, how did "walk ups" get ahead of them? I've never seen R.O.'s just take cards off the board and put somebody in front of them.

    I'm a software engineer... logic is my life. You're gonna have a hard time winning this one.
     
  17. SARDG

    SARDG

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    "Rule followers" defined as those who signed-up, then returned to a given stage to squad and shoot.

    Rule 110.20 (in part):
    3. The designated range officer will squad the
    next group of competitors for each stage
    setup. Additional squads will be formed when
    the previous group is down to the last few
    entries.
    Large groups in squads can lead to
    unnecessary delays for competitors who signed
    in earlier that day. In order to keep things
    moving as efficiently as possible, we need
    everyone’s cooperation.
    The scorekeeping range officer may ask someone
    in the squad to notify the sign-in range officer
    when down to the final one or two entries.


    The bolded referenced timeframe above gives the sign-in RO the opportunity to insert walk-ups during the times s/he is assembling the squad - before posting to the tree. This is what our sign-in RO was doing - although I think the squad concept was also lost - but she 'stacked' them according to walk-up presence, inserting the previously signed-up shooters after them, but then based on their sign-in time.

    I don't believe that there were actual insertions once on the tree, but there were additions of walk-ups at the end of the scoresheets before proceeding to the timed registrants next squad. At least that's how I think it happened. After the fracas, I asked the RO how she was doing it and she said 'squading them according to how they walked-up, because it was more fair."
     
  18. ron59

    ron59 Bustin Caps

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    It's so *different*, and in my opinion not intuitive/logical, that it puts more stress on the R.O.'s like yourself trying to implement it. Must shooters don't understand it, most R.O,.'s appear not to as well. Like I said... 16 matches and I'm being generous when I say I think I saw it once.

    I said it earlier... put this rule to pasture, it's way past its prime.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  19. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Retired

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    Ron, if the ROs squad 10 shooters, then the "early risers" that return would be ahead of the next group of 10. One thing I notice is the tendency to pack into the first available shooting bay, like sheep, and then another bay has sparse traffic.

    Someone else mentioned pasting; the only people I expect to see sitting and not helping are the too junior and too senior and the challenged shooters. I don't care if you have a fancy shirt with a company logo or you were the Area 6 IDPA match coordinator, paste or shut up.
     
  20. DEJ/FL

    DEJ/FL Millennium Member

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    Ron

    Take some time and travel to the Pensacola match in November and you will see first hand how smoothly the current rules on squading works!:supergrin:
    We had 300 entries last year and the max time a shooter waited was 20 minutes!

    Dan