[fredj338]

I think out of a short barrel an HST or Sig V Crown would expand more reliably. Underwood gives the rugged Gold Dot bullet the velocity needed to provide reliable expansion.

Its a short bbl GDHP. It doesn't need or want a lot of vel.

 

[Railsplitter]

Its a short bbl GDHP. It doesn't need or want a lot of vel.

Did you watch the video??? Two short barrel GDHPs that "didn't need the velocity" failed to expand. The Underwood regular 125 gr GD 38 round that wasn't short barrel "did expand" with the extra velocity.

 

[fredj338]

Did you watch the video??? Two short barrel GDHPs that "didn't need the velocity" failed to expand. The Underwood regular 125 gr GD 38 round that wasn't short barrel "did expand" with the extra velocity.

I did. The gdsb needs more than was gotten from that revo. Some bullets, the threshold for exp can be 50fps from expanded to not. I’ve loaded that bullet up,& down & no, it isnt reliable once you drop below 950fps. Above 1100, the bullet starts shedding petals & fold them back against the bearing surface. Its one test though, one lot.

 

[Railsplitter]

I did. The gdsb needs more than was gotten from that revo. Some bullets, the threshold for exp can be 50fps from expanded to not. I’ve loaded that bullet up,& down & no, it isnt reliable once you drop below 950fps. Above 1100, the bullet starts shedding petals & fold them back against the bearing surface. Its one test though, one lot.

That's why I like the standard GD bullet that Underwood loads. It performs very well at 1100 fps with no fragmentation.

 

[HKMark23]

HST is consistently in the 13-14" range

13-14" isn't deep enough

and it does a fine job in the real world.

Care to provide some of these "real world" examples?
Using this exact load... out a snub... doing a "fine job"... in actual living things?

We're not talking about hunting rounds here.

Where did I say a word about "hunting rounds"?

 

[fastbolt]

Dunno about the rest of you folks, but if .38SPL load can be accurately fired from a snub and expand anywhere from .45-.60" after defeating Heavy Clothing in 10% organic gel, producing 10-13" penetration, I'm not losing any sleep over carrying it. That's a better deal, to me, than the days of little or no expansion with excessive penetration.

I won't even lose any sleep with one of the large cavity JHP's (like the 135gr GDHP) that may occasionally fail to expand, but provides 'cookie cutter' shearing and cutting with almost full caliber wide sharp shoulders, compared to the old 158gr JHP or JSP +P's that had soft, rounded shoulders and sometimes looked like they could be reloaded and fired again.

 

[HKMark23]

Dunno about the rest of you folks, but if .38SPL load can be accurately fired from a snub and expand anywhere from .45-.60" after defeating Heavy Clothing in 10% organic gel, producing 10-13" penetration, I'm not losing any sleep over carrying it.

How is .45-.60 a "better deal" when it often doesn't penetrate deep enough to hit vital structures as I have found?

That's a better deal, to me, than the days of little or no expansion with excessive penetration.

Yet 38 LRN and FWC have proven themselves as excellent fight stoppers on the streets for well over half a century. Can anyone point to a vetted long term study that directly compares relevant wounds created by JHP and LRN/FWC/Etc on the streets? Something where all data is provided and can be studied by others.

Further, what is "excessive penetration"?
Multiple decades worth of actual street use has shown that the most commonly used 38 loads tended to be found either just under the skin opposite the entry point, or exit and be found laying harmlessly just beyond the target

I won't even lose any sleep with one of the large cavity JHP's (like the 135gr GDHP) that may occasionally fail to expand, but provides 'cookie cutter' shearing and cutting with almost full calibewide sharp shoulders, compared to the old 158gr JHP or JSP +P's that had soft, rounded shoulders and sometimes looked like they could be reloaded and fired again.

I've yet to find any consistent meaningful evidence of such "shearing and cutting" from any "sharp shoulders" with most of the countless JHP bullets I've fired into actual living "flesh & blood". The only place I've seen any such consistency is with FWC and SWC, if they don't tumble you can often find "cookie-cutter" type holes in organs (i've even found a couple of the plugs while processing). Beyond that I've found that the wounds created by typical expanding bullets are more often than not relatively indistinguishable from non-expanding bullets, this using the common handgun service calibers*

The most obvious difference I see is that non-expanding bullets will often hit more structures at depth, especially when fired in trajectories that are more longitudinal through the body. I've seen this in my own "flesh & blood" testing as well as real world shootings of humans, with one particular example being Christopher Wallace.

He was hit 4 times with 9mm FMJ ammunition, all rounds first penetrated through a car before striking him. Three of the bullets struck and traveled through non-vital areas; Lower forearm out wrist, back out shoulder, inner thigh. But the fourth bullet entered his right hip and traversed diagonally through his entire torso before stopping in his upper left shoulder (keep in mind he was a big fella at nearly 400#). Along the way it tore through his colon, liver, heart and lung. The people in the vehicle said he was almost immediately unconscious and the ER found he had already bleed out.

Just say'n



*Oddball cartridges like 5.7x28 do unusual things thus not applicable here

 

[fastbolt]

How is .45-.60 a "better deal" when it often doesn't penetrate deep enough to hit vital structures as I have found?


Yet 38 LRN and FWC have proven themselves as excellent fight stoppers on the streets for well over half a century. Can anyone point to a vetted long term study that directly compares relevant wounds created by JHP and LRN/FWC/Etc on the streets? Something where all data is provided and can be studied by others.
...

You can rely upon your personal game/varmint animal GSW experiences to your heart's content. No biggie.

Penetrate 'deep enough' is an evaluation and judgment that will always require situational context, and even then it can easily vary from one instance to the next.

.38SPL RNL and LSWC have been excellent fight stoppers for well over half a century? Really? Come on, man.

Asking for vetted studies is nigh unto an impossible task to ask when it comes to shooting incidents. Granted, while the typical motoring public doesn't typically have access to the shooting incident data compiled by some American LE, the DoD and the Canadian RCMP, that doesn't mean the data becomes meaningless.

Besides, even when you talk to folks who do have access to such long running data, the answer often remains ... "It depends" regarding effectiveness of typical handgun calibers and bullet designs.

The FBI settled on a 12" "minimum" penetration depth for their purposes. For a while another major fed agency was satisfied with 10", but they didn't get the press coverage, and they were more interested in actual OIS results than strictly considering lab testing.

Having a JHP expand in the .45"-.60+" range, under various conditions normally encountered in OIS and private defensive shooting situations, is pretty good, all things considered. Also, remember that the 12" metric used in gel testing isn't the same thing as traversing 12" of human anatomy. Sure, taking the potential for an intervening limb into consideration, or an oblique angle presentation of the threat, may require deeper bullet travel than a direct 'frontal' presentation. I've known of even normally (tested) deeply penetrating calibers/bullets being deflected by the relatively small wrist/forearm bone structures,though, or a .45 Ball becoming a pinball when it glances off the anterior surface of a scapula, but others behaving differently. How about a .380 Ball round being stopped by the spine (rear entry wound), but other .380 Ball rounds going through front windows and at least one interior wall of a house (drive-by). Bullets can be unpredictable, and introducing intermediate barrier materials can sometimes muddle things.

I was really, really interested in the relatively new science and art of firearms ballistic testing when I was given a copy of the then-new FBI service ammunition testing report in '90, and closely followed the IWBA in the 90's. However, looking at the OIS incidents throughout the years, meaning those local incidents and those being reported and discussed among LE trainers in ensuing years, it all seemed to combine into a montage of ... it depends.

After enough time I simply looked for any of the premium JHP's being produced by any of the major American makers, and accepted that the bullet of today might have undergone any number of revisions since I first started using it, and would do so again, in the future ...

... and focused my attention and efforts on those things over which I could have some measure of control. Like keep updated on the laws and case decisions that might affect things, and keeping current on my training/practice, awareness and practice of practical tactics and weapons maintenance.

I retired my .44MAG's, and looked at 9's, .40's and .45ACP's as being adequate replacements for my long-favored .357MAG service & off-duty weapons. It's just a handgun. The latest premium duty and defensive handgun loads are still just bullets, but the more modern JHP's can offer more potential for consistent expansion (under intended, reasonable conditions), and they're being engineered to offer the potential for keeping penetration within the common industry 'standards', when everything works as designed and intended. It depends.

I don't lose any sleep over the minutia anymore. Hell, I've even been known to carry the bargain/old style JHP's made by the various major makers, even though they may not have the ability to resist plugging and exhibit robust expansion in the typical ballistic testing protocols. Beats Ball in the respect of offering at least the potential for deformation and expansion. Still depends, though.

 

[fastbolt]

Kind of a coincidentally timely thread. I just cleaned the M&P 340 I used for my LEOSA qual (the newer No-Lock model) and decided to use it to replace the older Lock model I've been carrying (from the original production run, I was told, when I called the factory to order it as a LE discount in '05). Got out a fresh box of Speer 135gr +P and loaded the freshly clean M&P 340 snub, which will serve pocket-holster duty for my afternoon sojourn to my cigar club.

 

[LocoGlockO]

Kind of a coincidentally timely thread. I just cleaned the M&P 340 I used for my LEOSA qual (the newer No-Lock model) and decided to use it to replace the older Lock model I've been carrying (from the original production run, I was told, when I called the factory to order it as a LE discount in '05). Got out a fresh box of Speer 135gr +P and loaded the freshly clean M&P 340 snub, which will serve pocket-holster duty for my afternoon sojourn to my cigar club.

Ya know…for a Glock forum we definitely got alot of love for our snubbies here

 

[Railsplitter]

HST is consistently in the 13-14" range and it does a fine job in the real world.

We're not talking about hunting rounds here.

Federal obviously designed the HST to penetrate to 13 or 14 inches for a reason. I am assuming there are people at Federal who know a little about ammo performance.

 

[Railsplitter]

The FBI settled on a 12" "minimum" penetration depth for their purposes. For a while another major fed agency was satisfied with 10", but they didn't get the press coverage, and they were more interested in actual OIS results than strictly considering lab testing.

If it weren't for the over blown Miami shootout 10 to 15 inches penetration would be our standard. Corbon at one time even advertised their JHP ammo to get a penetration depth of 9 to 11 inches! And Corbon had a good street reputation.

 

[BBMW]

I don't buy the wadcutter thing, unless the only point of comparison is non-hollowpoint RNL. This is especially true when I can get the performance the OP did out of a <2" barrel with that round, which is considered at best of breed, or at least very close to it.

I'm a wadcutter man myself.

View attachment 1077934

And if I load them myself over 2.9 grains of Bullseye I use the 148gr hollowbase WCs. Mild and very accurate. If I'm packing my J frame .38, especially the airweight version, wadcutter it is.

But if I'm using a, 2.5 inch 66-3 Magnum

View attachment 1077937

I'll step up to some Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHPs at about 1050 fps from that 2.5 inch barrel but...

Wadcutter Ammo for Self-Defense - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Is wadcutter ammo a good option for self-defense? We fire rounds into ballistic gelatin to find out how wadcutters stack up.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[rfd339]

Been carrying this round in my 642 for a few years.

 

[KappaAlphaASU]

If they ever made a reliable semi auto chambered in 9mm that was as small or smaller than a J-frame that had double the capacity, a better trigger, easier to shoot, softer recoil, better ballistics, and was easier to reload, the .38 would be all but obsolete. Oh wait……

 

[Mark2Glock]

Been using speer 135 loads for quite awhile. I actually tried it on raccoon and it put dead Immediately so it's good enough and no you don't need 16" expansion. That would pass through most deer and I use a bigger gun for anything bigger.

 

[fredj338]

How is .45-.60 a "better deal" when it often doesn't penetrate deep enough to hit vital structures as I have found?


Yet 38 LRN and FWC have proven themselves as excellent fight stoppers on the streets for well over half a century. Can anyone point to a vetted long term study that directly compares relevant wounds created by JHP and LRN/FWC/Etc on the streets? Something where all data is provided and can be studied by others.

Further, what is "excessive penetration"?
Multiple decades worth of actual street use has shown that the most commonly used 38 loads tended to be found either just under the skin opposite the entry point, or exit and be found laying harmlessly just beyond the target


I've yet to find any consistent meaningful evidence of such "shearing and cutting" from any "sharp shoulders" with most of the countless JHP bullets I've fired into actual living "flesh & blood". The only place I've seen any such consistency is with FWC and SWC, if they don't tumble you can often find "cookie-cutter" type holes in organs (i've even found a couple of the plugs while processing). Beyond that I've found that the wounds created by typical expanding bullets are more often than not relatively indistinguishable from non-expanding bullets, this using the common handgun service calibers*

The most obvious difference I see is that non-expanding bullets will often hit more structures at depth, especially when fired in trajectories that are more longitudinal through the body. I've seen this in my own "flesh & blood" testing as well as real world shootings of humans, with one particular example being Christopher Wallace.

He was hit 4 times with 9mm FMJ ammunition, all rounds first penetrated through a car before striking him. Three of the bullets struck and traveled through non-vital areas; Lower forearm out wrist, back out shoulder, inner thigh. But the fourth bullet entered his right hip and traversed diagonally through his entire torso before stopping in his upper left shoulder (keep in mind he was a big fella at nearly 400#). Along the way it tore through his colon, liver, heart and lung. The people in the vehicle said he was almost immediately unconscious and the ER found he had already bleed out.

Just say'n



*Oddball cartridges like 5.7x28 do unusual things thus not applicable here

Sort of. The 38sp lrn has NEVER been a good fight stopper. If it was, they would never have moved to lswc then lswchp then jhp.

 

[fredj338]

If it weren't for the over blown Miami shootout 10 to 15 inches penetration would be our standard. Corbon at one time even advertised their JHP ammo to get a penetration depth of 9 to 11 inches! And Corbon had a good street reputation.

Really? What agencies carried corbon?
No just a simple look at anatomy tells anyone 9-11” of penetration is a fail on oblique shot on larger attackers. Not unlike hunting, i want penetration to vitals on any angle for the largest target i expect to shoot. The miami shooting was real world, not jello.

 

[fastbolt]

An interesting article covering some of the older .38SPL ammunition developments. Might interest some of the younger shooters, or even those who weren't paying a lot of attention back then.

All About The .38 Special +P and .38 Special +P+ - RevolverGuy.Com

The most common question about revolver ammunition right now is, “where can I find some?” The demand-induced shortage which began in 2020 is still very much with us, and finding some ammunition—of any sort, as long as it’s the right caliber—is foremost on the buyer’s mind. However, when we’re...

revolverguy.com

 

[crkckr]

The only problem I have with the 38 Special +p ammo is that I can't use it in my wife's Colt Cobra, which, with it's aluminum frame, is stuck using standard pressure ammo. I have yet to find anything that will expand reliably and yet penetrate more than a few inches except... I went thru the hassle of loading some 148 HBWC bullets that I had split the base with a razor blade in a cross shape. I learned I couldn't load them faster than 835 fps or they would keyhole and penetrate sideways (which is not all bad since a 148 on it's side has twice the area as an unexpanded .38 bullet going straight!). Problem is these bullets are labor intensive... generally a pain to make & load. I finally solved the dilemma with Underwoods standard pressure .38 Spcl Xtreme Defender. Expensive, yes but I trust the bullet to work as advertised.
Cheers,
crkckr