Glock Talk banner
1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Florist
Joined
·
22,416 Posts
Glad the LEOs are generally OK (except for the broken wrist), but I don't think one should be taking a Taser to a sword fight.
 

·
Inactive/Banned
Joined
·
3,554 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
One officer did have his gun pulled. They decided to try tasing the suspect first. But yeah that sucks about the broken wrist.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
Glad the LEOs are generally OK (except for the broken wrist), but I don't think one should be taking a Taser to a sword fight.
I agree with you. I would assume like Ryan said, that there was most likely lethal cover used as well when the TASER was deployed. The problem is that stories like this one, which dont talk about other officers having their guns out, are the ones that perpetuate the mentality of the public now that TASER's are the appropriate answer for everything.
 

·
Hook 'Em Up
Joined
·
4,213 Posts
There are a number of scenarios I can think of in which Taser deployment would be proper in this instance.

If the guy isn't actively threatening anyone, the officers have lethal cover, and can safely get within distance, there's almost no reason to not try the Taser first. I'm okay with that.

My questions aren't even about the Taser deployment, but the charges...

The guy commits a theft while apparently displaying a deadly weapon and he doesn't catch a robbery charge? I'm curious about the circumstances.

Then, an officer sustains SBI while the suspect is resisting, and doesn't catch an Agg Assault on a PO charge? They obviously had enough PC for the resisting charge, and I'm pretty sure it's culpable mental state is 'intentionally', which is two higher that the 'recklessly' required for assault.

I don't know the details, so I won't criticize. I am curious how this guy avoided two F1 charges, though...


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Florist
Joined
·
22,416 Posts
If you are close enough for a standard Taser projectile wire, you are close enough to miss and have your head cut off by a guy with a sword.

Tasers are stupid.

Thank you.

Edited to add: I support whatever the "Boots on the Ground" believe is most appropriate. But then again, not my body parts involved here...
 

·
No Longer Fenced In
Joined
·
11,133 Posts
If you are close enough for a standard Taser projectile wire, you are close enough to miss and have your head cut off by a guy with a sword.

Tasers are stupid.
Just to reiterate..... :cheers:
 

·
Hook 'Em Up
Joined
·
4,213 Posts

·
No Infidels!
Joined
·
8,794 Posts
Tasers are stupid.
What about the thousands of times when they have:

-Prevented escalation to the point of deadly force?
-Saved an officer from injury?
-Saved a member of the public from injury?
-Saved a suspect from injury?
-And so on.

It really overshadows the relatively small number of cases where they are improperly selected or deployed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,755 Posts
Since they had lethal coverage, the attempt with the Taser was appropriate. We've had that happen here as well. Multiple lethal coverage and two Tasers. Taser 1 deployed and worked perfectly. Suspect was arrested and that was that. But had the taser failed, the suspect would have been shot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,735 Posts
Remember the 2-to-1 ratio. If ANY kind of potentially deadly weapon/object is involved, have at least 2 officers with some type of gun pointed at the BG before you even think about a taser or other less-lethal option.
 

·
No Infidels!
Joined
·
8,794 Posts
It's also key to deploy lethal cover WITH the officer with the Taser, if possible. In other words, the officer with the gun should see things from as similar of a perspective as the officer without as possible.
 

·
Methberry PD
Joined
·
5,738 Posts
About a month ago a troop here got in a short but "spirited" pursuit of a drunk out in the county. Luckily one of the deputies caught up and the a-hole finally pulled over, jumped from the car, refused to comply, and was Tased by pur deputy while simultaneously pulling a handgun from his waistband....

The trooper fired a millisecond after the deputy launched the probes. The round sailed over the guy's head just as he was headed to the ground so he could do the funky chicken for them. Our deputy inadvertently saved the idiot's life seeing as had he not been tased the troop's 9mm would have scalped him.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Xtra CoCheese
Joined
·
898 Posts
I think Tasers have some great application, I just don't think this is a good example of one. Not being there and seeing how/where the officers were covered or the suspects position, I can't say it was a mistake, just that I wouldn't consider this a good Taser scenario given the info.

If an officer is in Taser range I think Mr Ninja could still potentially give him a haircut even with lethal cover (unless cover is The Lone Ranger carrying a 10mm of course). I think a lot of guys have become dependant on them beyond what makes sense. I know of one officer who confronted an armed robbery subject with his Taser after a brief foot pursuit. Turns out the suspects gun was an airsoft, but none of us knew that at the time.
 

·
Hook 'Em Up
Joined
·
4,213 Posts
Gumby,

I understand where you're coming from. Action beats reaction. However, lethal cover takes that out of the equation in an instance like this.

Remember the AOJ triangle principle.

Ability - An attacker must possess the power to kill or inflect crippling injury.

Opportunity - An attacker must be able to immediately employ that power in an attack.

Jeopardy - An attacker must be acting in a manner in which a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that the attacker had manifest intent to kill or inflict crippling injury.

Ability and opportunity definitely exist, but if the suspect isn't actively acting in a threatening manner toward anybody you'd be hard pressed to articulate jeopardy.

We're talking a sword here, not a gun. The same rules don't apply in every situation.

The '21 foot rule' is geared toward the reaction time to recognize a charging attack, decide to react, draw from a holster, and engage with a firearm. That's not the same as already having the BG in your sights, and needing only a millisecond to press the trigger. In a situation like this the lethal cover is already way ahead of the power curve.

I would argue that a BG in this situation is more likely to catch rounds within a half second of ANY sudden movement, probably even an attempt to turn and flee.

I'm not saying its an ideal situation. But, I would be hesitant to criticize their officer safety.




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,735 Posts
We're talking a sword here, not a gun. The same rules don't apply in every situation.
Deadly weapon is deadly weapon to me, whether it be firearm, sword, pipe, knife, screwdriver, or whatever... and that's the mentality officers should be trained IMO. Before I say more, could you explain your comment above?
 

·
Hook 'Em Up
Joined
·
4,213 Posts
Deadly weapon is deadly weapon to me, whether it be firearm, sword, pipe, knife, screwdriver, or whatever... and that's the mentality officers should be trained IMO. Before I say more, could you explain your comment above?
A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon, but the opportunity to apply them equally does not exist.

If I have a sword, and you are on the other side of a chain-link fence, do I pose the same immediate jeopardy to you as someone armed with a handgun?

If I am 100ft away from you, and I have a sword, do I pose the same immediate jeopardy to you as someone with a rifle?

I could go on and on with examples, but I hope I am articulating my point.

I do not now, nor have I ever condoned deploying a Taser against a subject armed with a gun, or to jeopardize officer safety to deploy a Taser.

That doesn't mean it's improper to deploy a Taser against ALL armed subjects.

There are proper techniques in place to safely attempt to deploy a Taser against a subject armed with cutting/bludgeoning instruments, as long as they are not "acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that they'd as manifest intent to kill or inflict crippling injury". It's called lethal cover.

If the BG makes the slightest move which could construed as possibly being the beginning of an attack, the lethal cover acts to stop the threat.

You can't smoke a guy JUST because he's standing there holding a sword.

What we also don't know in this case is exactly HOW the Taser was deployed. Was it head on while flanked with lethal cover? Did multiple officers flank him with lethal cover? Does Waco PD use the 21', 25', or 35' cartridge? How many Tasers were actually deployed. Did officers use some type of barricades? The questions can go on....

To denounce the use of a Taser, simply because a Taser was used, is wrong. Especially when we don't know what steps were taken for officer safety. Notice that my stance hasn't been "you should deploy a Taser" it's that "you shouldn't denounce officers who take the proper steps to safely deploy a Taser".

Brother, I am not the bleeding heart type. If a BG needs to get shot, they need to get shot. I won't lose any sleep over it. But, that doesn't mean we have to smoke everyone either. Technology has given us tools to use in situation that we would have had to shoot 10 years ago. There's nothing wrong with that.



Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,735 Posts
^^ Agree with everything. Although the examples you used (BG on the other side of a fence and/or 100' away) would not be a recommended Taser situation either, due to distance and obstructions. If you are close enough to use a Taser effectively (generally 15-25 feet), then you are close enough to be attacked and potentially killed within seconds by anyone with a deadly weapon.

Lethal cover is certainly a valid principle, but at any time the BG with the sword/knife/screwdriver (who is just holding it) DOES decide to charge you with it...
- your Taser might not work (we've all had that happen)...
- that distance will be eaten up REAL fast (we've all seen the videos)...
- BG has the mental advantage (he is ready to kill and you aren't)...
- and it isn't hard to get around a tree or car (your lethal cover)...

Holstering the Taser, drawing the pistol, target acquisition, pulling the trigger, all while in the midst of a deadly attack? Better be ready.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
24,846 Posts
My questions aren't even about the Taser deployment, but the charges...

The guy commits a theft while apparently displaying a deadly weapon and he doesn't catch a robbery charge? I'm curious about the circumstances.

Then, an officer sustains SBI while the suspect is resisting, and doesn't catch an Agg Assault on a PO charge? They obviously had enough PC for the resisting charge, and I'm pretty sure it's culpable mental state is 'intentionally', which is two higher that the 'recklessly' required for assault.

I don't know the details, so I won't criticize. I am curious how this guy avoided two F1 charges, though...


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Yep.
Swords at tobacco shops? I guess I need to go visit one.
I haven't needed a bong in a long time though. :supergrin:

Oh yeah, I say smoke'em but then again, I don't have a taser.
Even if I did, I think it would still be a gun day.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top