Six years carrying daily, never have had to draw my gun

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Vito, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    This the survey you were referencing?
    Depending on how someone may wish to define active peace officers (full-time, part-time, auxiliary, reserve, etc), the numbers a couple years ago seem to be tallied anywhere from a high 600K to more than 800K.

    Also, participation of local and state LE agencies with federal agencies, like the Census Bureau and the FBI, on matters like this seems to vary a bit. Other "sources" acknowledge their numbers are "general estimates" derived from a myriad of other sources.

    The (albeit) older stats I saw indicated that close to only 3% of all active peace officers would ever fire their weapons outside of a range during their career, but that was in the early 2000's.

    Also, one of the gun industry stats I heard in an armorer class was that close to 65% of LE agencies in the US had 10 or fewer full-time sworn members, but they were unable to given a definitive source for those numbers.

    Now, as a LE firearms instructor who decided to take a sabbatical 3 years ago, I've not kept up with these kind of stats quite so much. My interests are more in the skills-oriented aspects, policies & procedures, equipment maintenance, changing laws and how firearms trainers can be developed to better teach adults.

    That said, having followed some of the reported OIS incidents being reported in the general news, and listening to trainers discussing current incidents, and following some LE-oriented training sources, I'd not be surprised if some of the newer, younger cops (10 years or less on the job) might be showing a tendency to "go to guns" more quickly than the cops of my generation. I've occasionally discussed this concern with current trainers and older, or recently retired, folks from other agencies, and I've heard some similar suspicions voiced.

    Evolving and carefully crafted training issues, especially regarding policies involving use-of-force (and especially deadly force), and keeping up with relevant legal updates (changing laws) are critical.

    When I was a young cop, the joke usually heard was that a modern shooting policy could be as simple as "reload as necessary", but then we started seeing new court cases (Tennessee v. Garner was a big one, obviously) and changes. The High Liability section (think color coded pages) regarding Deadly Force in many modern Policy manuals became longer and clearly detailed. Discussing and reviewing (reminding staff of) existing policies and legal updates is pretty damned critical.
     
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  2. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    Fastbolt, I believe that was the survey I found and referenced.

    As far as how many LEO’s there are, that’s nearly impossible to tell. Many cops work at more than one agency. Other people are technically LEO’s, but may not even carry a firearm. “LEO” covers so many positions, even the same title may have completely different jobs, from agency to agency.


    Cops with less than 10 years are more likely to use their firearm? Interesting. I had never heard that. Generally, it seems the cops of today are much more likely to use less force than is legally justifiable.
     

  3. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    That was just an offhand number I used to illustrate how I've heard more experienced current and retired cops discuss the "younger and less experienced" cops of today. In other words, some cops who have been hired and trained in a less "hands on" policing environment than back in the 70's-90's.

    Back when I was retired, but still serving as an instructor, a close friend of mine shanghaied me to help him teach a Taser class. The class was an interesting mix of startlingly young cops and some remaining experienced cops (think 50's). During the class it became apparent that some of the younger ones were "less comfortable" in the use of physical force that didn't involve a less lethal option, or a gun.

    Then again, I remember a few younger folks back in the late 90's who expressed a strong reluctance to go "hands on" with anyone. I remember one young fellow (healthy and about 6'4") who asked me if I'd ever had someone physically resist me arresting them, and if I'd ever had to overcome their resistance to take them into custody. :headscratch: He claimed to be serious. I asked him if he'd ever at least been in a slap fight. :eyebrow: He eventually left us, and last I'd heard, he went to a pretty small agency and had become part of their small swat team.

    Maybe it's more like I've been around this long enough to have seen a couple of new generations coming through. ;) I had a gun, stick and cuffs when I was hired to work some active beats (few of the guys at my agency wanted to carry Mace back then, because it worked better on cops than the usual people you'd really need to use it on). The senior guys back then called us kids the New Centurions (from the Movie), and not really in a complimentary manner. They distrusted us until we'd proven we weren't going to get ourselves, or them, killed. Then, once we were past that phase, they still kept one eye peeled. :p

    Obviously, the cycle of life. :) "Curmudgeon" arrives unexpectedly, it seems, when you aren't looking. :animlol:
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  4. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    I am not sure about everyone else but I do not make my life-safety decision based on what LEOs do or dont do. The bottom line is that bad people do bad things to good people on a daily basis. Odds suggest that I am not likely to ever need a firearm to defend myself. That said, nobody can guarantee that I wont need one tomorrow, next week or next year.

    If we are going to start tailoring our precautionary measures based solely on how often we have trouble, I guess I can get rid of my spare tire, stop wearing a seatbelt, toss my fire extinguishers, leave my doors unlocked and stop paying half a dozen insurance policies.
     
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  5. JBL13

    JBL13

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    Almost 20 years of CCW and I haven't drawn. I've put my hand on my firearm a couple of times in response to being charged by large, aggressive dogs.
     
  6. Vito

    Vito

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    I don't disagree, but to some extent we all make decisions based upon what we perceive to be the likelihood of certain things happening. Even when it comes to carrying a firearm, it is certainly possible that we could be attacked by a crowd of 20 or more armed thugs, but few of us carry the kind of firepower that might allow one person to prevail against such an attack. Some of us prepare for more unlikely scenarios than others, such as the ones on this forum that say that they carry two or more firearms at all times, with three, four or more extra magazines, etc. as opposed to the forum member that carries a two shot Derringer or a 5 shot snubbie 38 special, or even a single shot belt buckle firearm.

    I own several medium size fire extinguishers because I think the chances of needing one are not so remote that I would be happy with just one. I keep one in my kitchen, one in my workroom and one in my garage. But that's just me. As to guns, I carry one gun, and normally do not carry a speed strip or extra magazine, relying upon what rounds that one gun has, which ranges from as few as 5 in my S&W 642 to the 11 in my Glock 26. At home, I keep available and readily accessed firearms in my bedroom, and in a small GunVault safe secured in the furthest corner of my lower level. That compares to those that keep a hidden gun in virtually every room of their house. So yes, we all calculate in our minds what the risk is that we want to prepare for.

    But my original comment was just musing upon the reality that while I do carry daily, I have not come even close in over 6 years to actually NEEDING that firearm, and from comments to this thread believe that my experience is more the norm than the exception.
     
  7. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    of course we do.. I simply think its a mistake to constantly throw LEOs into the middle of seemingly every decision a citizen wants to make on the subject of self defense.
     
  8. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Nearly everybody should go their entire life and never have to draw. I have never had to draw my gun in civilian life (other than on dogs trying to attack my dog a couple of times) or even off-duty when I was a police officer. I have been carrying one since 1987. That's normal.
     
  9. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You know, when I was working in some of the busier areas during different times in my LE career, there were days and nights when I'd almost thought that I'd had my duty weapon out of the holster more than it was in it. That was work, though. I was either being sent to known or suspected trouble, or was looking for it (to intervene), or it would find me (badges can be magnets for trouble, right?).

    I can think of perhaps a scant handful of times when I'd (mostly surreptitiously) had my off-duty weapon unholstered due to something happening. Instances that vaguely come to mind involved being near my agency's headquarters or a substation, in the process of either arriving to get ready to go on-duty, or trying to leave and go home, when something happened that I couldn't avoid. Pretty rare over that many years, though.

    The difference? Well, nowadays trouble is going to have to actively come trying to find me, and I've seen enough of it to recognize most of the signs and try to be aware of them and look for ways to avoid becoming entangled in it.

    No, seeing the usual suspicious-looking people loitering, panhandling, or walking around shouting/talking to themselves (or their imaginary whatever) don't make me reach for a retirement weapon. Remember folks, there's a pretty distinct difference between a bare fear and a reasonable fear, and damned few problems require a "solution" that involves a gun. Many "problems" can actually be exacerbated or made worse by making the presence of a gun known. Drive on.
     
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  10. 1L26

    1L26

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    To continue with this theme, I too have had those nights and sometimes weeks where it seems like damn near every call or initiated activity started or ended up with my duty weapon out and pointing it at someone.

    There have been times when and while carrying a revolver on duty (that should tell you how long I've been doing this job) that I could see the hammer moving to go bang. Not that I was looking at or for it but, it was moving and I caught a glimpse of the movement.

    I've made arrests while off duty that I couldn't avoid that also required taking control of the situation at gun point.

    I've been at some form of law enforcement work since 1975 and now in my later 60s I carry every day and I just hope that I can continue to avoid an out and out gunfight but, in these crazy times one can only hope.

    I've got friends that have been in multiple OIS and for the most part they've been winners. Having said that some were not so lucky and I think about them all the time.

    So, I hope we can all move on without any gun play and I hope they if required we all come out of this on the winning side.
     
  11. okiegtrider

    okiegtrider

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    I don't know what you expected, but you should pray that your life doesn't get any more interesting in that regard.
     
  12. Glock Commander

    Glock Commander

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    Actually a lot of my friends are in that 10% group. :cop:

    https://www.joinlapd.com/
     
  13. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    What’s really interesting is how many in that ten percent have been in more than one shooting.
     
  14. jmohme

    jmohme

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    I have never had the need myself, but carry every day anyway.
    It is no different than wearing a helmet on my motorcycle. I hope to never need it other protective gear, but I always wear it anyway.

    As for the wife, she never questions my decision to carry and I do not question her decision to do the same.
     
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  15. youngde811

    youngde811

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    I came close just once.
    I came close just once. I had my hand on the grip, yelled STOP, and the dude took off. Been carrying 10 years.

    Cheers
     
  16. 30roundmusket

    30roundmusket US Army Vet.

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    I had a guy that was renting a house next door to me attack me over the smoke coming off my barbeque. I drew my pistol and he backed off. I called the police and they arrested ME for pointing and presenting. It drug on for 3 years until I filed for a speedy trial. When I filed that motion they dropped the charges. I live in Charleston, SC a supposedly stand your ground state.
     
  17. Bullwinkle J Moose

    Bullwinkle J Moose Quick! Duck!

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    I've worn underwear every day for 68 years and, even though I have not crapped my pants once, I still wear them. Maybe carrying my weapon daily prevented said crapping.
     
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  18. Tvov

    Tvov

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    This has probably been posted, but I haven't read the whole thread.... :freak:

    I think people who CC have much higher situational awareness, and get themselves out of the way before trouble actually gets to the point of having to draw a weapon.

    I told my son years ago when he was getting his carry permit ... watch at a bar, event, whatever the people around the outside who are just keeping an eye on things - decent odds they have a CCW.
     
  19. DAKA

    DAKA

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    I have had the same experience, Not to JINX myself, but its going on 40 (FORTY) YEARS of C/C and only ONCE did I ever have to put my hand in my pocket, just in case... :couch:
     
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  20. oogy_pls

    oogy_pls

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    I've had to pull it once since I started carrying a year ago. Guy tried to carjack me at a stoplight.

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