Sig Sauer P-210 Carry...

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by Slugo, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. bac1023

    bac1023

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    They are great 1911’s for sure, but I’ll never put the 1911 design on the same playing field as the P210’s design.

    The P210 design has the edge in inherent accuracy and durability. They are also known for maintaining that accuracy long after the M1911 starts to drop off from wear and expanding tolerances.

    Not saying Wilson doesn’t build an awesome product. I’ve owned three and shot several others. However, the 1911 is no P210 and I love the 1911.

    The most accurate 1911’s can usually hold par with a Swiss P210 within 25 yards or so. Holding a 1.5” 10-shot group at 50 meters is a really tall order for any 1911. Not sure I own one that can do that.
     
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  2. rock185

    rock185

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    bac, all I'm saying is that there is no locking block/insert as in the 220 in the 210A frame. I took a photo of my 210A frame to show there is no locking block there. Of course we all know that the 210A barrel locks into the slide by engaging the vertical surface at the front of the chamber, instead of twin barrel lugs like the German and Swiss guns. But the 210A barrel still rides on the slide stop as in Swiss and German 210s, and utilizes the track in the barrel feet to lock and unlock.
    IMG_9391.JPG
     

  3. bac1023

    bac1023

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    I know they have a lug, but the barrel block still locks into the slide, rather than utilizing the circular grooves.
     
  4. MD357

    MD357

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    I dunno about durability. A Wilson framed test gun went over 250K rounds documented by Corbon in .45. As you know, Corbon doesn't make weak loads. I think they could handle 9mm just fine. I knew a PPC guy that had a Caspian 9mm build that had well north of 100K. So while I don't doubt the old Swiss P210s were tough, they aren't any tougher than well built 1911s. Heck, I'd bet an old P220 in 9mm would last longer than most would care to shoot it. So to me, it's a moot point.

    Accuracy? I'd have to see a bench test before I believed an appreciable difference. I'd rather have a Les Baer 9mm if that was the priority though.
     
  5. ottomatic

    ottomatic

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    bac, it appears that you have a 22LR conversion kit with it, but what is the item in the middle of the box?
     
  6. bac1023

    bac1023

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    Fair enough

    What I meant by durability wasn’t really the gun failing, it was the maintenance of the accuracy. The Sig’s design was really known for maintaining its accuracy after many, many thousands of 9mm. The P210 also seems to perform best with the hottest loads.

    I agree the Les Baer 1.5” guns are great. However, whether or not they can shoot 10 rounds into 1.5” at 55 yards, I have no idea. 10 rounds is a lot and 54-55 yards is far.

    I know in accuracy testing data I’ve seen done comparing accurate semi autos, the Baer’s results were disappointing. I’ll have to try digging it up.

    Not trying to downplay the Baer. I had an SRP 1.5” and it shot incredible. Probably about as good as my RRA Limited Match.
     
  7. bac1023

    bac1023

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    Yes, it’s a custom cased kit that Sig offered back than. It has a 22 upper from the P210-7 range and a matching 30 Luger barrel. The really cool thing is the fully checkered grips, which which I believe were only available with these kits.

    Back then, the P210 was the only handgun Sig built. The craftsmanship was just off the charts. This was still several years before their partnership with Sauer.

    That is a cleaning kit you’re referring too in the middle. Even that is put together better than some guns these days.
     
  8. SpringerTGO

    SpringerTGO

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    When I watch American Pickers on TV, one of the themes they use to sell their stuff is the "story" behind it. Provenance sells.
    When I said a ton Swiss P210's wouldn't sell at $2000 I qualified that by saying if they were in current production. Even when they were in production, imports were very limited in the states.

    Seriously, if 3 people were breaking into your house, and you only had handguns to grab, would a Swiss P210 even be a consideration? How about even if you were open carrying in a bad crime neighborhood? I say OC so you can choose any handgun. Would you carry a P210?

    You think antiques are always better, except if it's a new $5K+ gun. Then it's exclusive enough to be better than the rest of the commoners guns. You sell the stories and that's a good thing. Without people like you keeping the stories alive, a lot of these firearms would fall into obscurity.
    But modern materials, machines, computers, sights, etc. enable manufacturers to make better firearms than they did 75 years ago.

    I enjoy shooting my Swiss P210, but it is a relative antique as far as home protection/carry goes. A friend of mine just built a G34 for me. He's a much better shot than me, and he can empty 17 round magazines into one hole at 21'. Besides the capacity it has an RMR. The nail polish on the front sight of my 210 doesn't compare :)
     
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  9. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    My mistake. I'm little hazy (okay, hazier than a Grateful Dead concert) on the history of SIG and did an internet grab.

    I THINK this (internet grab from Rock Island Auctions) may be an original SIG P210-2 (for the damn price, it ought to be):
    [​IMG]
     
  10. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    I've always believed that a "stylish carry gun" is at the bare minimum, overrated. IMO If someone has to see your carry gun, your day or evening has already gone to ****.

    Carry something that works, that you are comfortable with, and that you can afford to lose - because if you have to use it to save your life, the police will take it for a while.
     
  11. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    Nice. But why are the two mags different? Is one not original?

    In the age of the internet and online auctions, they probably would sell. IMO they are a different magnitude of the same issue I would have with a Mauser .32 auto I have - it may be valuable, but the person buying it would have to know WTF it is. And the odds of that person walking through a particular shop is low. Put it on the interwebz, and they will find it. If you stock it, they will come.

    It won't sell at the rates that Glocks, new SIGs, SA, H&K, etc sell. But the market seems 100% different. Those guns are tools (some of them very nice tools), while the original 210 is more collector's item it seems.
     
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  12. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    Wouldn't be shocking. .45 ACP is a lot rougher on a firearm than 9mm. Big boom, more boomey stuff in the case (powder, channeling my inner Tous I guess), bigger hole, more juice leaks out......

    Plus the 1911 is, from what I can see design-wise, light years ahead of the 210 as a fighting handgun. Which is what it was designed to do.
     
  13. SpringerTGO

    SpringerTGO

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    What do you think the 210 was designed for? When do you think it was designed? Google is your friend.
     
  14. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    My point is it (the 1911) wasn't designed to be a tack-driver. WWII and military examples would rattle all over the place - even Colts (admittedly partially due to wear). To get it there, you have to modify the design a bit.

    My 'complaint' (more of an observation) on the Sig design from a modern handgun standpoint is that damn heel mag release. It's cool, it's part of the history, I get it. But it's just not practical. It was a European thing though - though oddly the Luger had the thumb release as well. No big deal on a target/range gun. And at this point, original 210s are more of a collector's item than something you buy to shoot the **** out of.

    Honestly it's more of a testament to how forward-thinking John Browning was on the 1911 (though he probably ripped it off of the Luger) than anything wrong with the Sig.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  15. bac1023

    bac1023

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    Are you kidding? I suggest you read up on the P210 and what it was designed for.

    ...and those old military 1911’s will turn to rattle traps (more than they are already) long before the P210-2.
     
  16. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    It was designed around WWII as a military and police sidearm in 9mm and 7.65x21. First adopted in 1949. I think the Danes are still using it.

    For whatever reason, Europe loved non-drop-free mags and heel mag releases. I guess it's harder to accidentally drop the mag with one.

    Mil-spec parts, my man. I laugh when people speak of Mil-spec as some great thing. Usually it mean "cheapest that will do the job." :rofl:

    That and wartime production by sewing machine companies and a big-ass caliber.......

    I'm not trying to bash on the 210 here at all - I honestly don't even know that much about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  17. bac1023

    bac1023

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    The Swiss P210 is a military handgun designed to take incredible abuse and maintain its accuracy and reliability. It’s one of the strongest designs EVER built, unlike the M1911.

    Ever see a loose Sig P210? Some of those old guns were shot a LOT.

    As for the Mag release, one was made for the Euro market and one wasn’t. It has nothing to do with forward thinking. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

    Not quite sure what you think the P210 is, but you seem to be quite off base.
     
  18. bac1023

    bac1023

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    I noticed ;)

    It’s all good, my friend :cheers:
     
  19. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

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    No doubt, but in fairness to the 1911 we should remember though that most military 1911s were produced before and during WWII. There were limits to what they could do back then and I think a lot of the parts were surface hardened only. Try a trigger job on THAT and you'll have slam fires within 50 rounds. And .45 ACP is pretty rough compared to 9mm.

    Actually I've just found out that 1911 slides weren't even heat treated until 1946. Spot hardening was done starting in 1941. May be where some of the strange things I hear about like "don't depress the slide stop to drop the slide" came from. Frame probably isn't still, since some use aluminum frames.

    'Course, you probably knew all that.

    So anyway - after learning all of that, I think we can agree that while both are old, they are from two different eras, really. I guess I get a little defensive of the 1911.

    Which is really weird, because in all honestly I don't really like 1911s all that much.

    Heel mag release - I just don't like the damn things.

    I think we can agree on one thing - WHY in the HELL is Sig bringing out another one with that name?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  20. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    I don't get it. A 9mm "carry" gun that holds 8+1, and looks about as ergonomic as any gun designed a hundred years ago might be. If I want a target gun, I am sure it is probably fine as a target gun. But they already HAVE the target model, right? So now, they offer a 32 ounce "carry" gun? To compliment the 210 Target and 210 Standard?

    While the 210 has history, this gun isn't that gun. For similar money, the SIG 320 XFive Tungsten gun probably shoots as well, certainly holds far more ammo, and (at a whopping 43.5 oz!), it similarly fails to qualify as a typical "carry" gun!

    If I want a piece of history, this fails. If I want a target gun, why choose this over the Target 210? If I want a carry gun, it certainly won't be this big with such a low capacity.

    I am sure it is a fine firearm, but nothing about it appeals to me. It is just a new gun, designed to fill some niche that SIG sees, but I one that I don't fully appreciate.

    For those who have and love them, that is great! SIG just hasn't convinced me it is something I should be interested in.