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shotgun newb questions

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by userfriendly, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. userfriendly

    userfriendly

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    Hi been a staker, este lurker for a few months. This is my 1st post.

    I'm thinking of buying a shotgun for HD and for range use. I've looked at a few "budget" shotguns, namely Akar, Hatsan, and Armscor. Are they any good? Or should I look for something else like Maverick, Norinco 870 copy etc.. Is there a big difference in quality between the above mentioned brands? Any idea how much the Norinco or Maverick will go for?

    What's better, folding stock or full stock? I mean which is more comfortable to use? Obviously the folding stock is more versatile but is it easy to use and comfortable to shoot?

    Lastly, should I save up to get a semi? They are not a lot more expensive compared to the pump. For my purpose, will a semiauto be ok or should I stick to a pump?

    TIA.
     
  2. KevlarSix

    KevlarSix Senior Member

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    OT

    By the way, where can you buy the Norinco 870? How much does it cost?

    Norinco 870
    http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57740

    A Remington 870 now costs around 45t. Hopefully the Norinco one costs half the price. 870 shotguns are the easiest to customize as they are the 1911 of the shotgun world. Plenty of accessories to choose from.

    [​IMG]

    Shotguns can be very unforgiving to your shoulders. Here's an accessory for pistol grip shotguns to lessen recoil:
    http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOpsStock.html

    Here's a video:
    http://www.knoxxstocks.com/ActionVids/SpecOps.html

    KevlarSix
     

  3. pipo

    pipo

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    I personally have my eyes set on the mossberg 590 special purpose (9 shots):)
     
  4. bikethief

    bikethief itchy trigger

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    I don't mean to be a spoil sport but I question the effectivity of a shotgun for home defense applications. Feel free to contest any of my statements here.

    1. The loud boom of your first shot will definitely affect your hearing and equilibrium.

    2. There are just too many projectiles to keep track of. Massive collateral damage and ricochets are an issue for me in the confined space of my home.

    3. What do you do if the BG manages to get hold of a hostage? Slugs perhaps? But will you have time to switch ammo?

    4. The length of the shotgun compromises maneuverability in tight spaces. (ie. corridors, bathrooms)

    5. The pump action needs 2 hands to cock and to fire effectively. What do you do if your strong hand is injured or if you have to drag a family member or push them out of harms way?

    6. Limited capacity. I'd rather have 10 rounds of .45cal or 15 of 9mm than 6-8 shotshells. Tactical reloads also take longer.



    That being said, I still plan to get a shottie in the near future. Why? Because I believe it still has its place in my humble armory. It is the perfect "barricade" weapon.

    If my home is invaded, my glock will be first in my hand and the 1911 with my wife in the bedroom. I go out to gather my kids (future kids) and other housemates and secure them all in the masters bedroom. Once everyone is accounted for, the bedroom door is locked and anyone foolish enough to try to get in gets a generous serving of 00buck in the chest!

    Back to your original query, the Hatsan Escort has been getting excellent reviews! That would be my economical choice. If you have more money to spend, get a Benelli.
     
  5. itosh

    itosh

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    OT din

    IMHO, shotguns can be best if you got a large lot/yard to defend...but if its already inside your home, then this is the best time to use your obstacle/practical? shooting ability w/ handguns...

    :)
     
  6. userfriendly

    userfriendly

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    I want a SG cuz I will keep it in the province and I already have a handgun. It will be more of a barricade weapon. And the few times I've shot a SG, it was fun. I also like the versatility of being able to shoot both buckshot and slugs.

    Lastly, since afik, we are only legally allowed to have a long arm not larger than .22 or 12 guage shotgun, then I want the biggest hole I can have. If we are allowed to have pistol caliber carbines, then I might get one instead.
     
  7. Allegra

    Allegra

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    get the militery issue mossy 590 then lagyan mo na bayoneta, that will take care of your cqb :)

    If I'm not mistaken , shot pellets spreads an inch every yard it travels.
    So hindi masyado problem ang kalat ng pellets indoors
     
  8. revo

    revo

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    Between a Mossberg and a Norinco, get a Mossberg, definitely.

    Mossberg is a fine company that stands by their products. Norinco is a company of China's Red Army.
     
  9. antediluvianist

    antediluvianist

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  10. bikethief

    bikethief itchy trigger

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    Valid points, Ante. Guess it all comes down to what weapon you have extensively trained with and what your home situation is.

    Anyway, are you shooting in armscor marikina or MCS?
     
  11. antediluvianist

    antediluvianist

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    MCS, about 11am, this Monday (bukas). Me and 3 other guys, shooting the .357 S&W 686Plus, an STI , a gunsmithed (by Mang Dolpho) Armscor 1911, a Glock .40, a Tanfoglio 9mm. , and the shotgun.

    Ya wanna see the .357? Come if you're free.
     
  12. kamelot

    kamelot

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    Hi Bikethief!

    Let me add some 5 centavos worth of opinion to what Antediluvianist has excellently pointed out!

    1. In times of stress (when the s##t hits the fan), your eyes and ears go into survival mode - you have a tendency to go into "tunnel vision" and your hearing will not be that sensitive to very loud sounds. In other words, you do not get startled with the report of your pistol or shotgun. Medically speaking, this just means that your tympanic membrane does not "vibrate" as easily. That is because your annulus tympanicus (the muscle around the drumhead) contracts causing your drumhead to stiffen.

    This is effected in fact by your sympathetic nervous system - the fight or flight phenomenon. This also explains why when you are afraid,(same as when you are in battle mode), you hear people say "namutla sa takot". That's because your blood goes into the vital centers. Blood in the periphery is channeled centrally.

    2. Agree with Ante re: the pellets do not spread that much in close quarter situations. Also, it is not advisable to use slugs or buckshot for indoor use. You can refer to articles of Gabriel Suarez and Massad Ayoob about these.

    Questions #3, 4, and 5 have been excellently answered by Antediluvianist.

    6. I may be wrong, but most face to face encounters do not go beyond 7 rds (pistol or shotgun). The fight is over after 2 to 3 rds.

    I totally agree with what you said - the weapon you have trained with and the home environment counts a lot.

    As we always say, get a dog - a guard dog or even a small ALARM dog. That will give you time to prepare. As always, practice, practice, practice. And always pray to the Lord above that you and yours are always safe.

    OT, for Antediluvianist and 3kings - if you shoot at ARMSCOR MCS, look for Gener - he's a good range assistant. Wish we could meet and shoot shotgun at Armscor Marikina Open Ranges.
     
  13. userfriendly

    userfriendly

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    Thanks for the replies. I'm pretty much set on a shotgun. Just have to choose which one. I've taken out Remmington and Mossy 500, 590, Benelli and Beretta's due to price.

    Can you guys give me a price range for the Maverick and what store to go to? Is it easy to get a PTT for a SG? How much does it cost?

    Should I go with pump or semiauto? I know with self loaders, there are risks of FTF and FTE. However, I think but I may be wrong, that it is easier to shoot. Release safety, cock, aim, shoot. The comment of having a hurt arm made me think. With a semi, if I can use a bed or couch as a bench, I can still fire. It will probably destroy the bench but at least I'm alive.

    With a pump, there is the risk of short stroking and its a bit more complex to operate under stress. Release safety, pump, aim, shoot, pump, aim, shoot ...

    Oh any user coments on the different shotgun brands? How reliable and how bad is the recoil?
     
  14. antediluvianist

    antediluvianist

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    The Mossberg Maverick is pretty much the same thing as the Mossberg 500 but the stock and thing you pull are synthetic (i like that- easier on the shoulder), and the safety is a crossbolt on the trigger like a Garand. It's cheaper than a 500, don't know the brand-new price right now, maybe 20-25? K.

    Shotguns kick but you lean your body forward and make sure the stock is firm against your shoulder, and it's OK. Use the 2 3/4 inch shells not the 3 inch shells.

    Have heard Armscor shotties tend to have (sometimes) defective striking pins.

    Pumps are normal house defense guns. Yes autos can jam.
     
  15. revo

    revo

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    The Maverick is a Mossberg brand, just in case you were not aware. It's their low-cost product line.

    With your price range, you pretty much already eliminated buying a semi-auto.

    The recoil energy from a 12 gauge is about 30 ft-lbs, so you can think of a 1 lb brick dropping 30 feet or have one of the BOGs here puunch you on the shoulder. To control recoil, you adopt a modified Weaver stance and the butt of the weapon must be in full contact with your shoulder.

    The weapon should last you a lifetime and can be passed on to your children and grandchildren. Being able to shoot a shotgun is a like a rite of passage for men and a source of endless family enjoyment once you start discovering skeet and trap, though I don't know how popular these are in the Philippines.
     
  16. isuzu

    isuzu

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    Just to give you and idea, the Norinco 870 costs CDN$299.00. Exchange rate is roughly P44.00-CDN$1.00. Not bad for a Chinese-made shotgun.

    http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/N870-18.50.shtm

    OT:

    The SKS costs $139.00, while the Norinco M14 (which has a forged receiver as opposed to the Springfield Armory which has a cast receiver), is selling in Canada for only $399.00

    http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/index-lg-cf.shtm

    The SKS is fun to shoot. Lots of former ComBloc surplus ammo available at dirt-cheap prices.
     
  17. Astra22

    Astra22

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    What are the basic features that a newbie should look for in a shotgun? folding stock or full stock? pistol grip? how about the length of the barrel?

    thanks.
     
  18. antediluvianist

    antediluvianist

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    Legal minimum length for a shotgun barrel in the Philippines is either 18 or 18.5 inches, I forget.

    For indoor home defense use, you want the shortest legal length.

    For hunting/shooting clays, you want a longer barrel which will yield longer range and a more compact spread of pellets at distance -the barrels of hunting shotguns go out to 28 inches and possibly longer, i'm not sure of the maximum.

    So, what do you want the shotgun for, defense or hunting? If both, then you need a shotgun whose barrels can be changed , and there are many of those. The Mossberg Maverick and the Mossberg 500, for instance. Also, shotgun shells come in 2 3/4 inches, and 3 inches. 3 inch shells are more powerful and hurt if you fire several of them. 2 3/4 inch shotshells kill just fine.

    You will have to choose what size pellets to use, from teeny-weeny birdshot all the way to 000 buckshot (each pellet about the size of a .38 special slug.) For indoor home defense, somewhere in the middle is best. If the Martians are coming, or a big moose (in the Philippines?) , shoot 00 or 000 at them; for birds, use birdshot.

    Armscor sells a shotgun with a pistol grip for P13,600. A pistol grip WITH a stock is OK, but a shotgun with a pistol grip ONLY jumps a lot. I mean, it will really fly up - don't believe those movie scenes where a guy with a pistol-grip shotgun just blasts multiple shots and the shotgun hardly moves. IT DOES!

    The shortest shotgun-type weapon I know of is the Serbu : http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php
    I don't think the Serbu is available in the RP. Anyway, its capacity is only 3 shots.

    You remember the movie "Godfather II". remember the scene where the Godfather's mother is blown away? That was done by a "Lupara" - a traditional Sicilian short-barrelled shotgun.

    Foldable stocks? You will want to shoot with the stock extended most of the time, so consider getting a permanent stock. Folding stocks look cool and military but are uncomfortable compared to permanent shoulder stocks. You can get recoil pads and recoil reducers for stocks.

    My eyes are bad and I am really bad with handguns now. But I am deadly with a shotgun. There is no point in shooting indoor ( say, up to 15 meters away) targets with a shotgun - it's too easy.

    And if you REALLY want to be mean, you can fire a slug - one big heavy slug . Inaccurate at distance but it's like a little cannon within 30 meters or so. You want to destroy somebody's car?

    Cheers.
     
  19. userfriendly

    userfriendly

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    I agree with the above.

    I've shot a folding stock before and it was uncomfortable. Found shooting pistol grips unnatural and yes it jumped a lot. Prefer stock. I think models with stocks are also cheaper.

    If I remember correctly, a 12 guage 00 buck contains 9 pellets of .355. Imagine getting hit by one. Its almost equivalent to being shot by a 9 round burst from an UZI with all bullets hitting. Ouch! A slug is close to a .50 in size.
     
  20. Astra22

    Astra22

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    There's a Mossberg 500 tactical with 14' barrel at Twin Pines selling for P37k.

    Very compact, with night sights and barrel heat shield. Just wasn't able to check if the stock was replaced with aftermarket as well.