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Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by TBO, Feb 12, 2012.
What a cluster.
I believe the shooter when he says he never would have shot someone he knew to be a cop. I also think that his discernment and decision-making skills under stress are abysmal.
Study. Train. Rehearse. Don't be that guy.
Sound judgment and decision making don't function in the grip of panic.
That is what I see of the situation as reported. The guy was fully in the grip of panic.
I agree, and add two points to your post. First, How do we reduce the tendency to panic? Through training and rehearsal. Second, is someone in a panic capable of acting as a reasonable man in the use of deadly force? No. In fact, he's likely to be reckless, even criminally so.
I agree with Dragoon. Sheer panic can not only cloud, but totally destroy a person's ability to make good judgements. When in a state of panic, I believe that anyone may be percieved by the panic victim as a major threat. Have any of you ever tried to separate a couple of fighting animals? Everybody gets bit!
I recently watched a video of a woman who had crashed her car into another car.
She then panicked and backed into a second car, then panicked some more and drove straight into a store.
The stores surveillance cameras showed her repeatedly trying to drive forward and reverse while stuck inside the building.
She was completely gripped by panic and was in full flight mode.
The only thing that stopped her was the car finally gave out and the store employees managed to drag her out of the car.
Full blown panic can cause some crazy tunnel vision and single mindedness.
I think the comments by Dragoon44 & Sam Spade have been fairly clear and insightful.
Training and "rehearsal" preparation to face some situations can often be a good thing. (Pilots, aviators, cops, fire fighters, soldiers, doctors, nurses, EMT/Paramedics and any of the other numerous occupations and professions which require judgment and precise, correct responses under adverse conditions benefit from training for emergency, exigent situations, and generally have continuing in-service training, right?)
Training has been found useful to help "inoculate" people against some of the adverse effects of stress when it comes to remaining able to function, both physically and cognitively.
Most folks (even without emergency services or LE experience) can probably think of times when they knew of someone (or even themselves) who experienced the blind, unthinking panic reaction to some unexpected dangerous situation, and how it overwhelmed them being able to react reasonably & deliberately to it. Maybe they froze in place, unable to think or move at all, or maybe they tried to resist the situation, or tried to escape it.
That old "fight, flight or freeze" reaction is a strong one. Seems to be hard-wired into us at a pretty deep level.
Unfortunately, doing any of those things at the wrong time, in the wrong situation, and ineffectively (or improperly) can often lend themselves to tragic results. Poor judgement under stress still has real-world results and consequences, though.
serious and realistic training can make a big difference. For one it gives you a level of confidence in your own abilities that helps ward off blind panic. But it also has to be matched with the proper mindset. I think mindset is one of the most neglected aspects of self defense preparations.
First and foremost one should seriously consider what are you capable of doing? This requires some serious introspection absent bravado and wishful thinking. It is easy to imagine yourself pulling the trigger in an imaginary scenario, it is something else to do it in real life.
It means understanding that the gun is merely a tool not a complete self defense plan in and of itself. it's not a talisman that wards off evil or defends itself. Always have a plan, it is easier to modify a plan on the fly than to try and come up with one in the heat of a deadly force encounter.
To that end it helps to practice what I call the "what if" game. instead of daydreaming or thinking of other things consider instead what if... this happened...what should I do? how should I or would I respond?
Deserves Bold & Underline.
Absolutely. Probably because you can't buy it in a box, or have it handed to you at the equipment counter.
Good thoughts throughout your post. (Let's just hope you're not preaching to the choir, or else talking over the heads of the younger, earnest & enthusiastic folks who are easily distracted by non-reflective, tactical-looking gear and advertising slogans.)
Bad situation for everyone.
After the shooting, the next step was search and assess. This was clearly a failure in the assessment stage of things, when adrenalin ran high and panic set in.
What we do know from the article...
It was not night-time, so the citizen could clearly see what appeared to be uniformed officer.
As a citizen with a CCW, I am familiar with how the local police are typically dressed when in uniform.
I'm aware that local LEO's don't always use marked units.
I've seen officers with tattoos, even specifically on their forearm.
Apprising yourself of some of this information beforehand may prove useful and factor into how you react in the situation described. At least the cop had his vest on.
It would seem to me that there should be some middle ground here on both sides.
It's obvious that Thomas was definitely trying to kill a uniformed police officer, but considering the circumstances it seems that Thomas was in fear of his life (whether it was real or not) and I wonder how many of us would have reacted under the same conditions.
Remember, Roach also mis-read the situation and was chasing the victim of a crime vs a perp, and he could have just as easily wounded or killed Thomas.
I would think a little time followed by a lot of probation would be justice in such a horrible mess.
I know a person who strangled his girlfriend and served less than 7 years!
I disagree insofar that Roach (the officer) mis-read the situation.
Remember that he reportedly see's only Thomas, shooting with gun in hand, headed in the direction of a fast food restaurant. He (Thomas) also ignores repeated commands by the uniformed officer Roach to drop his weapon.
The officer is, at that time, not privy to the fact that Thomas was the intended victim of an armed robbery.
I would argue that, if looking through the eyes of the officer, he has not "mis-read" a thing, but rather has drawn a reasonable conclusion based on what he is actively witnessing at the time.
wow, I don't think I've ever read anything so terrible all the way around.
It also depends on the uniform and whether Roach was in "full uniform".
Around here the city police uniforms are a mixed bag of all black traditional uniforms, BDU/Polo or T shirt combinations and the occasional bike officer in shorts and a Polo or T.
I've seen off duty officers headed home with untucked shirts, partly or completely unbuttoned uniform shirts with their wife-beater displayed and other less that obvious identifying clothing.
"In uniform" could be a lot of things.
If Roach was in BDU pants and a Polo shirt with an embroidered badge his status as a LEO might not be so obvious to someone in the middle of the most traumatic event of their life.
I think Thomas should go completely free, but be subject to lawsuits for negligence. But he isn't guilty of anything criminal.
At least how that story is written, I believe him.
Also sounds like the cop did make some mistakes in how he was trying to cuff Thomas.
And what kind of crap gun, or crap training, did the cop have with regards to his gun malfunctions? If he would have killed Thomas, he would have been justified.
Seems it was some unfortunate circumstances at play. But no need for jail time.
It would be interesting to find out exactly what kind of weapon the LEO was using. I'd bet that it wasn't a Glock. I'm not saying that Glocks are immune to FTF problems, but I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds through many different calibers without a glitch one.
How many rounds have you shot while rolling around on the ground fighting with someone?
We had a situation about 10 years ago where a liquor store owner and the swat team got in a standoff when SWAT raided the establishment and they came gun to gun. Thankfully neither side pulled the trigger.
At the time the incident happened the only law enforcement identifying symbol on the swat uniform was a shoulder patch not the large "POLICE" that you see today. The SWAT team was compelled to provide a "fashion show" in court for the jury of their raid uniforms.
The guy was found not guilty....
In this case, I think most know what a police officer looks like, so if it wasn't panic/tunnel vision it was plain stupidity.
I'm glad the officer survived.
This is truly one of those "you had to be there" situations. Unfortunately, these things happen, just like friendly fire in combat, or between on-duty police officers. A similar situation was also a big fear in the discussions about "no knock" warrant service some time ago on these forums. It happens. I know of a situation in Orlando, in which an on-duty plain clothes university police officer was shot and killed by a uniformed city officer, who was responding to the plain clothes officer's shots.
Oh, and APD issues the M&P 40. Of course, the malfunction could be ammo related. The mag probably got disengaged in the scuffle. Who knows.
Is that what you do? Dis other members posts? I have frequented this forum for awhile and generally found it friendly. But as usual, theres always someone like you who has something smart to say about what someone else posts. A gun malfunctioning doesn't have a whole lot to do with being on the ground.
For that matter, how many times have you? I simply stated it would be nice to know what type of gun the guy carried. My bad for wondering about such a subject on a forum.
Please forgive me to all I offended.