Self Defense ammo

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by mikeashurst, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. TacticalDesire

    TacticalDesire

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    The only metric that makes the round "relevant" at this point is price. I'll take modern proven rounds vs saving $4 a box and citing performance in shootings 20 years ago.
    Lead musketballs fired from smoothbore weapons once proved themselves on the street too and "worked". We have improved and continue to.

    I'll take current performance over 20 year old lore. Yes 9BLE has "street cred" and was the best out there at the time. HST and Gold Dot have been around to prove themselves as well and are used in hundreds of LE shootings every year.

    Also, properly calibrated gel is indicative of how the round performs in human. The 12-18" of penetration in gel required by the FBI takes bone, unconventional angles and clothing into account. Most people aren't 18 inches thick head on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  2. newglocker10mm

    newglocker10mm Texas Born & Bred

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    Not to start an argument, but gel does not simulate a bullet's interaction with bone or into differing types of human tissue densities. It only simulates unobstructed human tissue unless a barrier (4 layer denim, etc.) is introduced. While I agree that musketballs and smoothbores are agreed to be outdated and new technologies have improved facets of bullet performance, doesn't mean that some "old" technologies are not still viable and useful.
     
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  3. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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  4. JimmyCat

    JimmyCat

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    I shoot 124 gr. HST in my P365 but now going to at least try the 147 gr.
     
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  5. TacticalDesire

    TacticalDesire

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    It's not simulating bone you are correct. The reason the FBI requires 12-18 inches in gel is because if gets that penetration in the test medium, then you can expect it to perform in 3 inches of tissue + bone in a person. It's hard to articulate and I am bad at it but that is the reason behind it.

    I'm not saying the old technology is bad, I am saying there is no reason to willingly use it when there are better options. It's like going out and buying a Windows 98 computer in 2019. Can I use it? Yes. Should I use it with better proven options? Not if I can help it.

    I'm not going to purposely hamper myself or my effectiveness for nostalgia or to save a few dollars.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  6. JBP55

    JBP55

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    Last year I went with 147gr. HST.
    Prior to that I used 124+P Gold Dot or HST depending on availability.
    All three functioned great in all my 9mm pistols.
     
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  7. JBP55

    JBP55

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  8. newglocker10mm

    newglocker10mm Texas Born & Bred

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    Whole heartedly agree! That's why I use HST and Critical Defense. But if it's all you can get at the time it's still nice to know some of the old stuff (like me) can still get the job done if necessary.:flag:
     
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  9. newglocker10mm

    newglocker10mm Texas Born & Bred

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    Didn't know that about the relationship in the gel results Tactical. Thanks for the info!
     
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  10. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    124+p more energy and passes all barrier tests per dr Roberts testing


    Sent from my iPhone using Glock Talk
     
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  11. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Hey, Gary Roberts can have his preferences. :)

    Why would anyone be surprised that the old style Federal "Classic" 9BP 115gr JHP might experience a plugged nose cavity and fail to expand in heavy cloth or 4LD testing? That's kinda what some of the old style cup & core JHP's did, after all, right?

    The 9BPLE might shed some fragments, and might not consistently reach the "modern" 12" minimum developed by the FBI for its in-house ballistic testing, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't very successful during the few decades it was being used as the "new thing" in hot, high pressure 9mm duty ammo. (Yes, bullet mass is arguably more helpful in defeating angled windshield glass than just another 100-150 fps of velocity, and some additional mass is just one of the reasons the 147gr JHP's started to sell in big numbers in the 90's and later.)

    Remember that the ammo companies often required a waiver signed by agencies to order some LE-Only ammo back, and they were sometimes a bit fussy in restricting it to LE agency sales. Comes to that, remember when it took a while before the big name ammo makers were even willing to sell +P to the public? I remember how some non-LE shooters used to go to great lengths to obtain +P. ;)
     
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  12. LouisianaGunSlinger

    LouisianaGunSlinger

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    Those who test ammunition professionally for large agencies also will attest that loads which perform well against the auto glass barrier portion of gel testing strongly correlates with how a load fares when encountering bone. There's a published, cited study I have in mind somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it at the moment :clown:. Might be one of Wolberg's studies over on the west coast.

    Where I am the SD recently switched to a bonded round after encountering a number of wounded deer with thick skulls not being dispatched quickly with a traditional cup-and-core loading. It hasn't been that long but from the few encounters I've heard of since, everyone's happy with the results. It's also a load known for faring well against auto glass (Critical Duty 135gr +P). Not the most impressive expansion, but it does reliably expand and is extremely consistent through ALL the barriers LE agencies/departments typically test for.

    That said, even having switched to 9mm myself, I feel like if I were in the shoes of someone having to put down small-to-moderate-sized animals (whether injured or dangerous), I'd rather have a bonded 10mm or .45 Auto +P. But that's mainly voodoo on my part. It's amazing how resilient skulls are.
     
  13. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    In regard to putting deer down, I’ve done it to dozens. Some are one shot finishes. Others take a couple.

    Two examples stand out:
    A large buck was struck and cut in half. His hind legs were on the right shoulder of a four-lane interstate. We found him halfway through the median, dragging himself with his front legs. He had crawled across two whole lanes and another shoulder before getting to the median and was about fifteen feet into the median. That tough bastard was dead, but refused to accept it. A single 180gr Golden Saber to the back of the head, from two feet put him down.

    A small fawn ran into the side of my patrol SUV. I backed up, to see what hit me. The fawn had broken all but one front leg. I shot it, in the head, from about ten feet away. The deer flopped down and was still. I didn’t see anymore breathing, so I waited for the supervisor to come check it out. While looking for damage, the damn deer sat back up and started kicking. Scared the crap out if me. I could see the bucket had entered through an eye. I shot it, again, in the head. Again, it flopped down. This time, I went over and nudged it, with my boot. Nothing, finally dead. My supervisor arrived and while we were discussing the collision, the deer’s head sprang up, again! This time, it was really determined to get to its feet. Now, it was blind, though. I had managed to put my second bullet through it’s other eye. I felt terrible. I walked up and shot it a few times, from a couple of inches away. This finally did the trick. These shots were with 180gr Golden Saber Bonded.

    Some deer just refuse to die. Just like some people. That fawn took a lot of rounds to kill it. I’ve shot others with one round, of the same ammo, and they fell dead without taking another step.

    While I’m on deer stories, I thought I’d type my worst one.

    I was still pretty new and we had a guy in day shift use a full magazine to finish a deer off. This was unacceptable, to the bosses, so it was recommended we use a long gun, when possible. I got sent to a terrible location, curves and hills with steep ditches and no shoulders. I found the deer and decided it was a good time to test my AR. If I moved down the ditch, I would be shooting into a hill backdrop and away from any houses. It took me a moment to get down the hill. I looked for any watchers and saw no vehicles on the roadway. I shouldered the weapon and shot the deer. When I turned around, to go back to my patrol vehicle, I saw the elementary school bus had stopped behind my patrol vehicle and every kid in the bus was plastered against the window, most of them didn’t look okay. The damn driver waited for me to get back in my vehicle, before driving off. I went straight to the Sheriff’s office and told on myself. Sure enough, there were complaints.
     
  14. unit1069

    unit1069

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    I've been sitting on several boxes of the Federal 135-grain Tac Bonded +P for about ten years. It's the heaviest 9mm round I've ever shot through any 9mm pistol I've owned. Instead of jumping onto the heavy-for-caliber bandwagon I thought I'd just rely on these rounds with a heavier bullet instead of buy more ammo that I really don't need at this point. If heavier is better for penetration I thought Winter would be the best time to carry it.
     
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  15. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    +1 ^
     
  16. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    I never really got the heavier for winter penetration thought that many have. Heavy clothing won’t do anything to hinder bullet penetration, any test I have seen is the only effect heavy clothing does is possibly enhance penetration by limiting expansion. I do mostly carry heavy for caliber but in the winter especially I like very reliably expanding bullets like HSTs.
    The only light bullet I carry is the 125grn HST 357Sig.
     
  17. Glock Commander

    Glock Commander

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    No, you just had a lucky day. Even Marksmen have an Expert day occasionally.

    I was the Team Captain on our Pistol Team and I saw that frequently.
     
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  18. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    After careful consideration, watching MANY youtube videos of ballistics testing of Federal 124 grain HST and Federal 147 grain HST through denim and ballistic gelatin, etc. and considering that I have a so many other 9mm handguns and a healthy supply of 124 grain HST that I think I'll just stick with Federal 124 grain HST. I'm accurate with it in all my 9's. Thoughts?
     
  19. HEXE9

    HEXE9 Supports Our Flag

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    In 9mm, the [all copper] CorBon DPX 115gr +P is hands down my #1 choice.
     
  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Your guns and your "healthy supply" of the load.

    When the day eventually comes that you begin to exhaust your supply of it, then you can either get more or use something else.

    What's wrong with using a good quality JHP load from one of the major American makers, and concentrating on maintaining and refining your skills? ;)
     
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