Self Defense ammo

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by mikeashurst, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    Remarkably more accurate? I don't really think that is possible. It could certainly be more accurate ( measurably so) but to say remarkably?.. nah, I doubt it.

    As far as changing the ammo, why not. If it seems more accurate to you, go for it.
     
  2. unit1069

    unit1069

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    If you have any knowledge about Federal 135-grain Tactical Bonded +P can you share that with us please.

    I'm not a heavy-for-caliber believer but I have a good supply of the Tac B that I load in Winter if I'm carrying my 9mm. I know it's listed on Doc Robert's list but there's very little info about the round's record in either ballistic gel or OIS reports. And as far as I know there's no record of it stopping threats.
     
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  3. wruess

    wruess

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    So, would you be basing your switch 150 rounds one day at the range? Maybe you just had a good day? (or a "remarkably more-accurate day"). More data....
     
  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Never came across anyone/any agency who ordered it in our general area. Not being a proponent of bonded pistol ammo, I never paid it much attention.

    Being more expensive than the HST, it never seemed as though it was in particular high demand as a duty load. When ammo budgets become tight, more costly ammo lines tend to sit on the shelf when agencies are trying to make their frugal ammo dollars go as far as possible. (Bear in mind that the HST line has often been discussed as being Federal's inexpensive, budget offering.)

    Matter of fact, last time I looked Federal's LE catalog didn't even list their Tactical Bonded duty line. Dunno if that means they've suspended or stopped production (lack of demand?), or are just focusing their current production efforts to what's selling well in the commercial and LE/Gov markets at the moment.

    If you plan on having to defeat intermediate barriers like glass, sheet rock, plywood and sheet metal, then bonded might have some practicality (although regular JHP's don't seem to suffer quite as much as some folks seem to automatically think).

    Not sure why you'd want to load them in winter, as heavy winter clothing isn't known for offering the same "intermediate barrier" resistance that's tough on bullets like glass, wood, sheet rock and metal. Also, if multiple layers of heavy cloth and fibers plug a JHP and impede expansion, it's more or less going to transform the JHP into a Ball round, which doesn't really require "bonding" in order to perforate and penetrate deeper than it might when expanded.

    Fortunately, some of the newer bonded JHP's (like in the Winchester lineup) seem to have reached the point in design and development where they exhibit good expansion in factory testing despite being bonded. There's always the Speer GDHP, too, with its older mechanism for bonding the copper to outside of the lead core. (Just no "heavy middleweight" 135gr load.)

    Perhaps since the FBI awarded one of its 2 duty pistol ammo contracts to Hornady, for the 135gr FTX +P load, the people at Federal might sometime return their 135gr LE9T5 load to their catalog? Dunno. Sorry I don't have any info on it.
     
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  5. JW1178

    JW1178

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    HST opens wide and fast. In about an inch of penetration it's all the way opened up. Best part is they don't need much velocity to do this. Having a bullet that opens the chute so early so to speak, often they lack penetration. The 147gr has the weight to keep it going. Almost every 147gr HST test I've seen under realistic conditions performs great. My choice of carry for a 9mm.
     
  6. newglocker10mm

    newglocker10mm Texas Born & Bred

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    Can you provide any evidence of not being construed as self defense over 7 yards? Just wondering because I have more than 21 feet of distance in my house.
     
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  7. rock_castle

    rock_castle Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

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    "Remarkably" more accurate? I don't think so
     
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  8. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    Did you just make this up or are you repeating what someone else made up?
     
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  9. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    Shoot what you like. If you’re shooting the 147 better, use that. Two reasons, both of them that you need every edge, in a firearm usage scenario.

    One, more accurate always beats lesser accurate, in selection.
    Two, confidence in your abilities with your weapon system helps keep you in the right frame of mind.
     
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  10. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    Thanks for the replies. I'm definitely making the switch. I can get the Federal HST 147 grain in crisp new boxes for $21.95 per 50 round box where I live!
     
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  11. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    I was attending a "firearms familiarization" course given by my local police department. They said that around 0 - 7 yards is within the self defense range. 7 yards is about the edge of the envelope when it comes to self defense. Anything further may not be construed as self defense to a jury since jeopardy, ability and opportunity could be in question.
     
  12. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    I would believe that is an average firing distance, not a requirement to justify deadly force. The “21 foot rule” has been proven to be too short.
     
  13. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    I felt more confident in my ability to shoot the 147 grain over the 124 grain. I don't think it was just a good day. It felt different.
     
  14. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    What seems true to you and me may not get past a jury. You can bet that if you shoot someone, in self defense, at a distance greater than around seven yards a good trial lawyer can make you look pretty stupid on the witness stand. I don't think I want to be in question of self defense in a court and facing manslaughter charges because of shooting the perp at a distance that would suggest no jeopardy, ability, or opportunity.
     
  15. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    I’d suggest finding a better authority on SD. There are cases, off “the top of my head” of SD (including defense of others) out to 70 yds.

    There is no 21’/7 yd “rule”. D. Tueller never intended his drill to be interpreted this way. Further, the so called 21’ “rule” applies to contact weapons only. Even then 21’ may be too far - or too close for a contact/edged weapon - it is situationally dependent, that is all Teuller was trying to demonstrate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  16. mikeashurst

    mikeashurst

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    That's a question that would be answered in a court with the DA either being on your side or making you look like an idiot for shooting in a set of circumstances that may not make sense. There is certainly no "21 foot" rule. I'm not personally making a judgement call here! If lethal force is used in SD you can bet you'll be held accountable for your actions. Better have an attorney to represent you when you have to answer to your SD action that ended someone's life. Given a particular set of circumstances, you must prove jeopardy, ability, and opportunity. Distance has everything to do with it. THINK before shooting in self defense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  17. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    I don’t think you know what you are “talking” (really writing) about.

    Probably not your fault, just what you’ve been reading or “instructor” you’ve taken a class from. I’d suggest getting the book “Law of Self Defense” by Andrew Branca. It describes the framework for all SD law in the USA, with specific information for each state. Another book (although a bit dated) that is good is “In the Gravest Extreme” by M. Ayoob.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  18. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    Well, I for one absolutely, positively swear by HST 147gr +P as the best ammunition for my 9mm guns period! Want to know why???

    I get it for free.

    PS and it also functions well in my guns and will do the job if I need it
     
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  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Using issued ammunition can be a very freeing experience for some folks, allowing them to devote their attention to those things over which they do have some measure of control ... like skillsets, quality of recurrent practice and the acquisition of knowledge. ;)
     
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  20. John_AZ

    John_AZ

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    I am a firm believer fractions of a second matter more than fractions of an inch in expansion or penetration

    but I am no expert.