Saw an article from the welfare zombie thread

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by OctoberRust, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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  2. SGT HATRED

    SGT HATRED

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    I agreed with some of it...
     

  3. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    That is an idiotic piece of racist garbage.

    But hey, apparently I'm a "rabid anti-racist" so what do I know.
     
  4. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    Glad you posted in this thread.
    I never called you a "Rabid anti-racist" Some points I even agree with you on, and in the last post you put in my riot thread seemed to have hit the nail right on the head.

    Please articulate why it is, I'd like to hear.

    Again, some of the article just doesn't seem right and he seems to be stereo typing a whole group.

    Can you debunk his claims he makes from IQ to spending? I'm sure you can, but I'd like to see for myself.
     
  5. Brucev

    Brucev

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    Agenda driven social commentary is always skewed regardless of its point of origin.
     
  6. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    Wasn't you, it was el_jewapo.

    As is usual with this sort of thing, his claims are a blend of facts, opinion, and idiocy.

    For example:
    This gap is indeed a fact. The clear implication of the next few sentences is that black people aren't as smart as white people, and that is NOT a fact.

    Here's why: SATs and GREs are not a measure of cognitive ability. They measure a convolution of knowledge, level of test-taking preparation, language skills, and intelligence. They do not measure intelligence alone.

    Chinese and Korean applicants for graduate school in physics CRUSH American applicants, on average, on the physics GRE. A "good" score for an American applicant is a 70th percentile score, but a Chinese student has to score in the 95th+ percentile to have a real shot at going to a good US grad school.

    Does that mean that Chinese people are smarter? No, of course not.

    On the other hand, those same Chinese and Korean applicants tend to score in the sub-10th-percentile on the verbal part of the general GRE. They're terrible at it.

    Does that mean that Chinese people are dumber? Again, no, of course not.

    The low score on the verbal GRE is because the verbal is pretty much an English vocabulary test, and English isn't their native language. The high score on the physics GRE is because they spend the last two years of college doing nothing but studying for the physics GRE.

    The same is true about IQ tests. Think about it--how well would someone who doesn't speak English do on an IQ test administered in the US? They'd fail, probably--but certainly there are people who are brilliant who do not speak English. If black people, on average, score lower on IQ tests, is that because they're dumber than white people, or because their level of education is lower?

    The answer is obvious, and the truth is out there as well--black people are, on average, no dumber or smarter than white people or yellow people or brown people. People are people. If you look at the IQ test scores for affluent black suburban kids, they perform at the same level as the students around them. If you look at the IQ scores for white students that go to poorly performing predominantly black schools, you see the opposite trend. It's not about race, it's about education.

    (Note that I am NOT SAYING in any way that we need to spend more on black schools or inner city schools or anything of the sort, NOR am I saying the opposite. I am not suggesting any policy change of any kind.)
     
  7. M&P15T

    M&P15T All Hail King Kona

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    Does someone want to argue against the validity of the facts below. I've lived in Detroit and Benton Harbor Michigan, and now live close to D.C. I've been around such people as described below, I know their failures. In fact, some of the most racist people I know are educated and successful blacks, tired of those in their community that drag them down and give them a bad name.

    "First, on every known measure of cognitive ability, on IQ, SATs, GREs, everything, blacks average about one standard deviation, fifteen IQ points, below whites. The gap is a fact. It exists. It is reflected in performance. It has proved intractable. In a technological civilization that rewards intelligence, the deficit sharply limits legitimate access to the higher reaches of money, power, class, and prestige.

    Second, blacks continue to show little interest in schooling. Exceptions and degrees, yes. Yet consider cities such as Washington, which usually has a black mayor, black city council, mostly black school board, black staffs in the schools, black parents, black students, a high per-capita expenditure—and perhaps the worst schools in the country. This is a fact, and shows no signs of diminishing. It is repeated in countless cities."
     
  8. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    Excellent posting, and great points.
     
  9. Wake_jumper

    Wake_jumper Don't Jump!

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    Fred speaks the truth.
     
  10. M&P15T

    M&P15T All Hail King Kona

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    I find such high-minded observations humerous. I would suggest that
    the scientific community has moved well past the idea that blacks are somehow genetically inferior to whites in intelligence. As you yourself note, it's much more a question of culture and societal norms within the community one is raised in.

    It's not a question of intelligence, it's a question of having the ability to function as a normal adult. The idea is to contribute to society, instead of sucking on the teet of governmental hand-outs and entitlement programs.

    The only person that is trying to center the discussion on intelligence is you. Not the author, and no one else that has spoken in this thread. Intelligence is only one of many, many factors that determine how a person manages to survive in this society, and too many blacks in our society simply do not want to be part of main-stream, professional and hard-working society.

    Tests such as those described are faaaar better indicators of how successful one will be in the real world....much better than tests that measure intelligence. There are so many other considerations other than intelligence, whose combined effects are far more important than measured intelligence, that focusing on measured intelligence gives a very in-accurate eastimate for a young adult's future success.

    To be blunt, the issue lies with the generations of blacks in this country that have created and continue to foster a social system within their community that looks down upon education and success as being very "anti-black" for the communitie's members. If a black person is successful, the majority of the black community looks upon them as sell-outs, uncle toms, non-blacks, etc.

    It's a social issue within the black community, one that can only be solved by the black community. And at this point in history, the US black community is lacking both in leadership and in desire to be successful within the norm of American culture and society. Too many blacks want to live and be judged strictly within their own communities, and the only contact they desire with main-stream America is for this nation's tax payers to pay their bills for them. They segregate themselves purposely, because many of them cannot succeede in the general American working population due to negative influneces from within their own community they experienced while growing up.

    I really think that no one here should even comment unless they've lived within the black community, seen it from their front porch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  11. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    The key to effectively overcoming such racism is to respond with reasoned arguments that demonstrate that his racist conclusions are based on false premises.

    I didn't have time to read it yet, but the lead-in mentioning a Carl Rowan book looks interesting. Drawing a Carl Rowan to Zimmerman comparison hand't occurred to me before.
     
  12. OctoberRust

    OctoberRust Anti-Federalist

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    I more or less was trying to get that point across to Steven with my reply to his post. He articulated his opinion well in the post after it.

    I'm not really one way or the other right now, Steven and M&P both have very good points.
     
  13. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    You seem to agree that all of the evidence says the opposite of your conclusion. What is the evidence on which you base your conclusion?

    Problem is, we are talking about evidence based on testing Americans who were born here, compared to other Americans. Your "foreigners who don't speak English" argument is obviously invalid. Then we could go back and look at evidence regarding IQ tests in other languages and cultures, or even tests in English of immigrants. It's been a few years since I read up on the subject, but I don't recall anybody every producing evidence that supports you. In fact, the response has been to simply shut down any inquiry that discusses the evidence, as several social science types have discovered.

    Again, you have conclusions, but they don't seem to agree with any evidence I am aware of and you provided none. The usual way of winning for you is to challenge me to disprove your conclusions, then claim that any source I cite is "racist." Just wanted to give you a elg up on that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  14. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    I think it's sad that you find careful thought funny (although I think it's hilarious that you managed to misspell "humorous").

    You don't read very carefully, do you?

    The author of the article states that he thinks there is an intelligence deficit. Not me.
     
  15. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    Right there in my post:


    Right--and when you test a statistically large sample of kids from similar economic backgrounds, who go to similar schools, you find that their level of intelligence is roughly the same, regardless of race.

    I don't have time at the moment, but I know that I have read several academic papers on the subject (I didn't just make up the example I cited above). Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you with some stuff to read.
     
  16. Averageman

    Averageman

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    If the gap isnt fact, why do we have social programs that make up for the gap?
    Clearly highering practises that bend toward minority employment do exactly that.
    Just askin'
     
  17. M&P15T

    M&P15T All Hail King Kona

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    Yeah, a few hundred words and I miss-spelled one. Look carefully and you might find more.

    I read the article. I have yet to notice anything that doesn't properly represent large black communities like those found in Detroit, D.C., and other large, urban black population centers.

    Based on test results, there is. You and I can agree that the reasons for the poor test scores of blacks in this country is not an issue of race, but rather of environment, but that still does not change the facts as the author has represented them.

    The author is using the word "intelligence" in reference to both academic tests that measure a person's learned knowledge, and IQ tests created to attempt to strictly measure intelligence. YOU are taking intelligence to strictly mean innate mental capabilities that are difficult to measure strictly by themselves, and the author isn't. And in the end, how one scores on tests such as the SATs is much more important to future success, than how one scores on an IQ test. A person can be extremely intelligent, but if they can't speak, read, write, spell, or do basic math, it means little in the real world. That's why there is such an emphasis on education and related standardized testing, instead of IQ tests.

    Further more, many "IQ tests" are deemed poor indicators of a person's actual IQ, because much of said tests, at their basic cores, reference knowledge that can only be gained by paying attention in a well-run classroom. Since it is difficult to create a test that strictly measures intelligence, without in some way referencing basic knowledge one learns in school, many "IQ" tests are far from their description. A person attempting to take an "IQ" test may very well have a high IQ, but they can't test well if they can barely read, so they look bad on the IQ test as well.

    A high-schooler in the ghetto could have a 180 I.Q., but if they can't read past a 2nd grade level, they're going to score low on an IQ test just like they would the SATs. The proof is in the test scores, and the author is not lying. I did not see in his article any statement that blacks are not as innately intelligent as other races, he just pointed out that they score poorly on IQ, SAT, and other standardized tests, which is completely true.

    Ever live in the ghetto?

    I laugh when logic and facts are construed as racism, as many are doing here in this thread. Just another way in which political correctness stops people from properly addressing the issues at hand.....because political correctness will not allow some to acknowledge what the issues are to begin with. It's about what makes people "feel" good, instead of what actually gets things accomplished. The author is speaking hard truths, and many here can't accept them, so he and his article gets labled as racist.

    Too many posters here want to join on the "that's racist" bandwagon, and inject their own personal brand of politically correct white guilt into what the author wrote, instead of being able to read the article without bias and get the facts and message from it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  18. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    It was a joke. "It's funny that you misspelled humorous."

    Funny... humorous... no?

    In other words: I am using the word to mean what it actually means.

    That was the point I was making. You are saying the same thing I said. Why do you think you're arguing with me?
     
  19. Chesafreak

    Chesafreak

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    I'm not going to attempt to debate the points of this article. Since I'm white, it doesn't matter what I think. I think we could bring up some good points about society's problems, but try asking a colored person a valid question about it and see them avoid the question by claiming you're racist. I just saw this happen on a different gun forum website.

    The only part of the article that I do believe is that some cities are going to burn.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  20. DScottHewitt

    DScottHewitt EMT-B

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    So am I. And I am multi-racial, including Ebony American.


    But, even if I wasn't I am 100% human and I think we should be giving out public service awards for our citizens who take on the responsibility for protecting society. Especially ones who euthanize mad dogs in the street when they get out of control......