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S&W being spun off

  1. American Outdoors is spinning off S&W into a publicly traded company. The article I saw listed were a steep decline in gun sales over the past 2 years, boycotts by antigunners hurting sales of other products and liability exposure. SCOTUS not stopping the Sandy Hook lawsuit a couple of days ago and this announcement are not a coincidence.

    The decision that passing a law that says you cannot be sued for legally selling a gun someone does not mean you cannot be sued for exactly that is really frustrating. That's not how democracy is supposed to work. The claim that Remington engaged in false advertising because it said the guns had civilian uses and can therefore be sued because that is illegal is absurd. I still hope it fails but it should have been thrown out.

    I wish I could get mad about American Outdoors decision but the truth is I am not going to be buying any S&W stock when it is available. If lawyers start suing anyone that ever sold an AR all those M&P Sports are going to be a huge liability.
     
  2. It's a business; division losing money and has bad optics, sell it.
     
  3. So, folks aren’t buying new S&W products? Call me surprised...not.


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  4. The Shield and M&P Sport II are two of the most popular guns on the market.
     
  5. What a shame it would be if this great company, an American icon around the world, were to fail. I hope it never happens.
     
  6. S&W hasn't really been S&W for a very long time
     
  7. Maybe without the restraints of their parent company they will get rid of the awful lock on their revolvers and come back to nice revolvers...even if they have to charge more and become a smaller player in the market.
     
  8. I like S&W's footwear. HH
     
  9. I must be the odd one out.
    I've been buying their performance center revolvers for years.
    They are awesome and some of the most well made and accurate firearms I own.
    Their model 41 in 22LR is an absolute tack driver.

    Folks aren't buying (as many) guns at present due to the feeling of security presented by a Republican administration. Wait till we get closer to the election, particularly of it starts looking close.
     
  10. Not with me, and apparently there’s a pressing need for other models that sell.


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  11. They survived ownership by English toilet makers and they will survive this as well.
     
  12. As usual, this is not nearly as nefarious (Chicken Littley) as everyone wishes. Its all about maximizing share value and dividends. GE spun off its transportation division this year for the same reason, and since it wasn't a firearms division no one here cared one bit.

     
  13. I understood it to be the Connecticut Supreme Courts ruling, not SCOTUS, that the lawsuit could proceed. Did I misread that?
     
  14. I'd like a new M-76 but Reagan screwed me on that deal.
     
  15. The US Supreme Court did not put the appeal on their docket so the Connecticut ruling still stands and the lawsuit will go forward. Even if it eventually fails Remington is going to have to pay for a lot of lawyers.

    I don't know what Remington's exact claim was when they appealed to the SCOTUS. I don't think you can appeal just because you do not like the lower courts decision.
     
  16. More than a few revolvers Smith has made in the last 20 years I have wanted to buy but knowing the failure rate of that lock I have passed. Other makers have no comparable models.
     
  17. Shields are selling for $200 ... Looks like panic selling ... :wow:

    31353-rebate_1.jpg

    Palmetto State Armory
     
  18. I still want a 442, 642 type. Offer them $250 no lock...
     
  19. I am actually surprised that S&W is losing money. They do make some good guns, and my understanding is that gun sales are up since Trump took over and the Dem gun grabbers keep carping.

    oh well, I have plenty of guns and am not in the market to buy so it really does not affect me.
     
  20. The fit of the sideplate on my 629-5 is so close the line seems to disappear. I've had it off 3 times.

    I have quite a few S&W's and they are all fine guns. I have not bought any lately when they started putting integral locks in them though.
     
  21. What is the failure rate of the lock?
     
  22. I’m curious about that as well. I thought the biggest issue with the locks was esthetics and principle of the idea of integral locks?
     
  23. I don't know the specific rate but 10-15 years ago there was some stuff out there where it was occurring enough to make me think twice. Mad Ayoob was noting it and on the Smith and Wesson forum they had a thread. It mostly happened in lightweight, high recoiling weapons. Mostly the light magnum revolvers.

    The thinking seemed to be the movement of the gun with hot magnums in light guns was shifting the safety flag enough to activate when pulling the trigger on the gun after firing. It would lock the hammer partway back. The cylinder couldn't be opened easy in that condition and there was a live round under the hammer. I was going to the Smith and Wesson forum back then and they had a thread about it.
     
  24. I won't buy one with a lock.

    It is sad to see what is happening.
     
  25. Back when the owner of Sigforum owned the Smith and Wesson forum there was a running sticky thread for owners of S&W revolvers where the lock on their gun engaged prematurely/accidentally. It ran for several years and I was surprised how many people had the gun lock up on them accidentally.

    The worst offender was the lightweight revolvers in magnum calibers. Apparently the heavy recoil broke the device, locked up the gun and required gunsmithing.

    But there were numerous reports of people dropping their gun on a hard surface and it locking.
    There were enough people posting about malfunctioning guns that I decided I'd never own one.

    The owner sold the forum and the new owner "accidentally" lost the thread. All that important information gone. It wouldn't surprise me if S&W had a hand in that.

    There is a lot of info online about how to remove the lock and there's even some companies that sell a device to plug the hole.
     
  26. Probably whether the CT Supreme Court erred in determining that the exception to the protection of the Federal law regarding illegal marketing claims afforded the plaintiffs a basis on which to sue. That's a Federal law question, which the SCOTUS can review, if it so chooses.

    It chose not to. Now, the plaintiffs have to prove that Remington's marketing of the Bushmaster was illegal and caused the shooting at Sandy Hook. That is the only part of the lawsuit that still exists.
     
  27. Nil.
     
  28. It seems the Hillary hole bought S&W about 20 years.

    Buy what you can, confiscation isn’t a reality but driving manufacturing out of business could be, we’re not a “free” market with activist courts and investors.


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  29. Theeeeerrre's their problem ...

    Me too !

    Times way too many to help them ... :eek:
     
  30. S&W is supposed to be an American arms company. Get rid of the PC stuff and get rid of the LOCKS.
     
  31. Bring Obama back, the gun makers were thriving.
     
  32. I've been involved in a lot of M&A's and spin-offs. It takes a lot more than a couple of days to make a decision to do this and to execute an announcement. It is just coincidence that it happened the same week as the liability ruling.
     
  33. Possibly though the basic decision to spin off was made because the suit was filed.


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  34. I have one Smith that came with a lock (a 442). A few minutes using google showed several lock removal Youtube's. Did it and a spring upgrade in less than an hour. No big deal. The 442's now come with or without a lock.
     
  35. Maybe they should have listened to their loyal customers who said they didn’t want handguns with locks.
     
  36. I would buy it if I could if only to get rid of the damned lock.
     
  37. Went to lunch with a buddy today, ended up at LGS........................guess I bought a 6 inch no lock stainless 686.
    Had a beautiful blued 586 there too.....awesome bluing job, deepest blue I've ever seen, looked to be the original blue. ...no lock of course.
     
  38. I sometimes wish I had picked up one of the original 586 revolvers back in the day. I am more of a K frame kind of guy though.

    About 10 years or so ago they had a 325 with snub nose. If they had it without a lock I would have been throwing cash at the dealer. It would have been a great back up for my 1911 at work.
     
  39. I wasn't in the market for a new gun, last fall, when I bought a Thompsons TC-22, after the lilly livered voters of Washington State turned them and every other semi auto rifle into ASSAULT RIFLES, just for spite.
     
  40. I still don't think so. I believe it was "overall market conditions". It doesn't matter that much though. I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion and when I was involved in some M&A's, it was frustrating and sometimes amusing to see the speculation on chat rooms that was way off, but I couldn't comment. Now I can. :)
     
  41. I have an M&P M2.0 Compact that is a great shooter. Picked it up this past August and have 500ish rounds through it thus far without issue. I'd hate to see S&A fail....