Running a scope on a defensive AR: quick release mount or offset irons?

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by cowboy1964, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Ignoring the argument as to whether an unmagnified red dot or a variable power scope is better for a defensive AR, assuming you're going with the scope, would you use a QR mount with standard backup irons or go with a non-QR mount with offset irons? Between the weight savings of a non-QR mount and the faster into action offset sights I'm thinking that's the better way to go. Assuming you will leave the scope on the gun full time and won't be moving it around.
     
  2. K. Foster

    K. Foster

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    If you use quality optics, the chances of you needing to rapidly transition to irons is very slim. There’s nothing wrong with off set irons, if you want to go that way. I prefer a QD mount and standard BUIS.
     
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  3. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    If I were to have to resort to iron sights because my telescopic sight is dead then I'd rather take that dead weight off and use the iron sights the way it was meant to be used.
     
  4. cbetts1

    cbetts1

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    3-Gun shooters have some interesting ways to set up their AR's. Reliability and speed are very important. They go from magnified to close shooting very quickly, no time to drop equipment if it fails. Although shooting competitions are not life and death, I think this is a great way to test the use of equipment, it's reliability, build muscle memory and shooting skills. IDPA & IPSIC have done this for many people.
     
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  5. G29guy06

    G29guy06

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    umm.... cowitness the scope w/ irons...

    above it was mentioned "dumping the dead weight"...yes you can down the road but the immediate issue is that usually the time you notice your optic is down is when you need to pull the trigger so not the time to take a knee and dump whatever optic. If your cowitnessing then you can still pull the trigger if the optic fails.

    Cowboy- you specified "defensive" use. So we'll assume that to be inside of 50yds. I don't run magnified optics on an AR personally, but I definitely wouldn't in a home defense scenario
     
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  6. ucfgrad93

    ucfgrad93

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    Cowitness the scope with the iron sights was my initial thought as well.
     
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  7. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    Cowitness iron sights with scopes? I'd like to see how that happens. Telescopic sight isn't the same as red dot sight. You can't look through a telescopic sight to use iron sights.

    Sure, you can get one of those weird mounts to mount the scope above the iron sights but then you have 12" worth of cheek weld heights.

    Don't stand there like a tree if your weapon is down. Hug the ground, find cover and fix your problem. Standing there with all the ninja moves are really cool and all but it's a good way to get shot while your weapon is down.

    Nothing wrong with using a 1-4X or 1-whatever X for home defense. Just crank it down to 1X and go to town. Or better yet, point shoot in a home defense scenario. If people can't hit with a shoulder arm at 10-yds or less via reflexive type of shooting technique then they need to go to school instead of relying on gadgets.
     
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  8. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    Let me know how cowitnessing a telescopic sight with iron sights work out for you. Take some videos or pictures and show us how it's done.
     
  9. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    That's why they have red dot sights for backup and not iron sights.

    A gun modified to be "reliable" on a shooting range's competition isn't the kind of gun that's "reliable" for home defense/combat. These guns are modified for fast cycling with specific ammo and easy of handling. Not for humping the boondocks with all kinds of crap ended up in the guns.
     
  10. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    1) I prefer offsets when a magnified optic is involved.

    Remember, offsets are not "BUIS". They are alternative sights. They can be used as BUIS in a pinch, but this isn't the purpose.

    I like them because A) crap happens to optics other than breakage. Offset sights are awesome when your scope gets foggy, snow covered, muddy, etc. They work until you have a chance to clean off the scope. B) modern, well-made optics fail so infrequently I'd rather have the offset ability for fast transitions to close range targets over a set of sights that will likely never be used. Add to this that the most common failure is electronic. A trafitional magnified optic isn't dependent on electronics, so the chance of failure is even lower.

    2) Co-witness with a scope? Really? You're serious? Serious failure here. Like putting a light behind the front sight level of fail. Have you actually tried this. Please tell me how you are going to get a clear front sight through a magnified optic? Even if you have a "True" 1x this is difficult. Not to mention having the rear sight behind a magnified optic is...problematic...for multiple reasons.
     
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  11. NeverMore1701

    NeverMore1701 Fear no Evil Platinum Member

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    I have one pair of offsets on a rifle with 5-25x glass, red dots and variables with 1x low end have regular flip ups.
     
  12. BC42

    BC42

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    You can set up co-witness on a 1x4 or 1x6 scope. I have a Burris MTAC and used to run buis but took them off because they're dead weight. The scope sits over the rear buis so I would have to take the scope off to use it. The MTAC has a reticle etched on the glass so even if the battery dies, I can use it. I have a red dot on my other AR with buis and absolute co-witness. That's the AR I'd grab for HD because it's lighter.

    I have no idea why anyone would need a scope for HD.
     
  13. faawrenchbndr

    faawrenchbndr CLM

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    Offsets with a lower powered scope, like a 1-6
    I don't feel there would be time to remove the glass and stash away if the optic fogs.
    Higher power scopes get no BUIS.
     
  14. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    A lot of folks run a single optic with "irons" in 3-Gun. At least around here, I see single optic more than multi-optic/electrical. A single optic keeps you out of the open division in IMGA or USPSA.
     
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  15. crockett

    crockett

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    Skip the irons. I'm running a 8 ounce VORTEX muzzleloader scope with AERO mount on my lightweight 3.9 lb SD build. Open eyes acquisition with clarity and FOV well beyond red dots.


    [​IMG]
     
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  16. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    I hate to get hung up on this, but I think it's important for new shooters to understand what a co-witness is.

    The first case is not a co-witness. This is having irons and a scope zero'd for the same distance. A co-witness allows you to use the irons inside the red dot and have both be zero'd. Thus the term co-witnessed. You can see both sight systems. This is not possible with a magnified optic, or optic with anything other than unlimited eye relief.

    A LPV is more versatile than a red dot. If I only had one rifle, it would have an LPV. That is how they get used in HD.
     
  17. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    I'm curious but why do people always bring in competition scenarios when the OP asked about defensive use?
     
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  18. faawrenchbndr

    faawrenchbndr CLM

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    Some lack attention to detail.....that or poor reading comprehension skills
     
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  19. happie2shoot

    happie2shoot

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    Is this the scope?

    http://shop.opticsplanet.com/vortex...plusbox-beta&gclid=CND3pfrxytICFZpMDQodk6gLkg

    How much does that complete rifle weigh?

    I like it but I still like BUIS too, have them on all, I think
    thirteen ARs, we have, can't remember exactly how many.
     
  20. crockett

    crockett

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    Yep, weird thing is, the lightest scope is also the cheapest. Not really a match for that $2700 rifle but it's pretty good.

    The rifle is at 3.95 lb (no poly anywhere but grip), the mount is 3.07 ounces and the scope is 8, totaling at 4.65 lb.

    I first had a Aimpoint Micro T-2 and Scalarworks LDM/Micro mount on this rifle which would have shaved off 4.5 ounces but that T-2 is a joke in my book. Tiny glass and if you ever get dirt into the open optic you have to fall back to backup irons, which in turns would have put me weight wise right back to where I'm at now.

    I wish Kahles would come out with a super lightweight 1x. Love my K16i, best quality glass around.
     
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