Roman Catholic Bibles

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by OV1kenobi, Aug 15, 2020.

  1. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    When I rededicated my life in 1987, I developed an intense desire to know more about the Christian faith. Today I have a fairly extensive (for a non professional) library of Bible reference books and various Bibles. Today I'm also a Deacon in my church and I lead an adult Sunday School class.

    The false Old Testament books were written by various people who wanted to try to get some claim to fame by writing something religious. In the New Testament period the same thing happened, but mostly by Gnostics in the N.T. The Hebrew people put together the list of Old Testament books.

    The extra O.T. books in the Catholic Bible are some of the more trustworthy old books, but still not conical. They are interesting to read; and especially for those interested in the period between the Testaments, I recommend them. Although there is much in them that does not pertain to the period between the Testaments. And there is some stuff that is questionable, but not much.

    Most people don't know that the final list of 27 books we know today as the New Testament weren't agreed on until about AD 375 or so the best I can remember without looking it up. Back then books of the New Testament were written to circulate around the Church's of that day by the early Church leaders. But a lot of false books were also written during that time frame by people who claimed to know what they were doing.

    By about AD 125 there were a list of about 21 or 22 books of what we today know as the New Testament; that most Churches possessed. One Church might have a few other books that other Churches didn't have. That list frequently included some Gnostic or other false teachings as well at that Church. So there was no universally agreed on Canon for a long time.

    So finally late in the AD 300s a big Church conference was called to settle what books belonged in the New Testament. They came up with the list of 27 we use today, in both the Protestant and Roman Catholic Bibles.

    Although some people still argue about some of the N.T. books. For instance Luther wanted the book of James removed from the N.T. And he published his Bible with it moved to a separate section in the back of his Bible.
     
  2. FullClip

    FullClip Native Mainiac CLM

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    Ha-Ha. I remember my maternal Grandmother would comment about something cheaply cobbled together as "That will last as long as Martin Luther did in Heaven". I still use the same expression today if I have the right audience.

    And the Nuns taught us that Lutherans are all going to the hot place. They wouldn't have lied to us.
     
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  3. Anicius Julianus

    Anicius Julianus

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    I use the Vulgate. I am not Roman Catholic or Catholic of any form or persuasion , but an evangelical Christian who loves to study Latin.
    I am impressed at how well the Vulgate follows Scripture and really, I study it because I don't know Hebrew and most likely never will, but the Vulgate is a direct translation of the Hebrew Bible.
     
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  4. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    Our oldest son (a Roman Catholic) is a devout Bible studier. My wife is Roman Catholic.

    For about 20 years I studied the Bible with my wife at our local Roman Catholic Church, because it was the best Bible study I could find. Most of the studies were led by the Priest, a Catholic Deacon, or some very knowledgable lay leaders.

    When we came to a disagreement on the Catholic interpretation of certain verses, I stated my opposition and they gave their view. We understood each other, and never got disagreeable about it.

    Same thing with many Roman Catholic 'traditions' that I strongly disagree with. I'm not Roman Catholic, but I believe the devout ones are just as 'saved' as many Protestants. I also believe both faiths have people who are going to be in for a big unpleasant surprise at Judgement Day.
     
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  5. BSA70

    BSA70

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    I also intense desire to study the bible and currently in course with EMMAUS bible college. Right now in Galatians.
     
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  6. BSA70

    BSA70

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    "I believe the devout ones are just as 'saved' as many Protestants."
    What do you consider "saved"? Trusting in the LORD alone for your salvation or a combination of works and faith?
     
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  7. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    ^^^ BSA Too long to get into a detailed discussion. But it takes both as well as a personal relationship with Jesus and dedication to do the best job of following Jesus that you can.

    See Matthew 7:21-23 for starters.
     
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  8. MFC4

    MFC4 Civil Liberties Matter

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    We have two Catholic Stores in my area. I always try to shop at them to give business. If I can’t find what I am looking for, I can always find it online.

    While the men in the Church are worthy of criticism, the idea that Catholics don’t read the Bible is untrue. In fact, most churches have bible studies.
     
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  9. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Private side

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    Yeah, but you can touch the host and face the altar during mass now, so...
     
  10. OttoLoader

    OttoLoader

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    The St Jerome translated the septuagint Greek language old testament to Latin.
    The Hebrew books were in Greek do not a direct translation from Hebrew language.

    The new Testament also in Latin.

    Septuagint
    The septuagint is the Greek language translations of the Hebrew scriptures.

    The septuagint includes the extra books that the reformers Martin Luther claimed the Catholic Church added.

    The Ortohodox Church has additionally two more.
    The Orthodox include Maccabees 1, 2, 3, 4.
    The Catholic does not include 3 and 4 Maccabees.
     
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  11. Cmacc

    Cmacc

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    Interesting in that we live 2 minutes east of the campus of Emmaus Bible College (Evangelican-Bretheren)

    If I drive 2 minutes north I can be at the campus of Clarke University (Catholic), 4 minutes east of us is Loras College (Catholic), and 2 minutes south east is University of Dubuque (Presbyterian).
    The city of Dubuque (pop. 59,000) has an impressive concentration of small colleges for its size.


    https://www.emmaus.edu/
     
  12. n2g

    n2g

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    I found these NRSV translations that include the Apocrypha. There might be a few more on their site. This company sells some very nicely bound Bibles. I have quite a few of their heirloom-quality Schuylers in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, and ESV translations. They are Christian owned and donate part of the profits to missionary work.

    http://evangelicalbible.com/product-category/nrsv/

    On another note, on their menu under Information, their Apologetics section includes some very good articles written by their owner, who is a minister. Check it out if you're interested.

    As for different English translations, they are ALL translations. The original manuscripts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. These are not lost languages and good translations can be and have been done.


    The Bible is a topic dear to my heart, and one that should be dear to every Christian (and non-Christian, for that matter).

    I have always been a Christian, but since I retired I've really gotten into researching and studying the Bible on my own as well as in church. It's quite fascinating and everyone should read it at least once. It's the best-selling book ever, btw. Despite often being cherry-picked, it tells one story, so as with any written work, context matters.

    There are so many good posts in this thread. It's truly a shame RI had to be (rightfully) closed. Other similar websites manage it quite well.


    :goodpost: I absolutely agree. "Ain't nothing like the real thing, ..."




    As for me, I study the Bible because I believe it is the inspired word of God, and how fortunate we are to have it! If the Bible were newly discovered, everybody would be clamoring to read it. What a treasure it is and it is largely taken for granted.

    I don't know much about the Apocrypha, but it's my understanding that those books are supposed to tell about events that happened after the Old Testament but before the New Testament. They aren't accepted by Protestants as authentic.

    Some of books of the Old Testament (the times before Christ came to earth) were written by Moses, the prophets of those times, King David, King Solomon, and others. It includes creation and the fall of mankind and the history of God's chosen people, the Israelites.

    The New Testament, which begins at the time of Jesus Christ's birth, was written by his contemporaries including some of the apostles and those who worked alongside them, such as Mark. These include their eye-witness accounts and the divinely inspired letters they later wrote to Christians in other areas sharing what they had learned as disciples of Jesus. The Book of Revelation records the inspired vision that appeared to John on the island of Patmos and includes some prophecies which will take place in the future. It's nice to know the ending even if we don't know all the details!

    No one sat down and said, "Let's write something called the Bible and make everyone do what we say." These works already existed. It contains the inspired manuscripts and letters of Christ's apostles that were already in use by the early followers of Christ.

    The Old Testament is the Bible that the Jewish people already accepted and used, and Christ quotes from it a good bit in the New Testament. It contains a lot of history, narratives, poetry, proverbs, and prophecy, much of which has already been proven very accurate, and some of which is yet to be fulfilled.

    As for the New Testament, as Caver notes, a few hundred years after Christ ascended, some church leaders decided to gather the legitimate manuscripts from those the churches in different areas knew to be authentic and were already using. (The Apostle Paul had written to some of these churches, but not every church had a copy of the letters to the other ones. The book of Romans contains the letters Paul had written to the Christians in Rome; the books of Corinthians contain the letters to the believers in Corinth, etc.) They weeded out the ones that weren't solidly authentic and credible, and put the others together so that all the churches could have a copy of them all. These became our Bible. We can have confidence that it is authentic and the inspired word of God.


    Here's Caver's great post:


    I agree with the above also. Both Catholics and Protestants profess faith in Christ through God's grace. They just go about it in different ways, and their churches are very differently organized and funded.


    Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus sums it up succinctly. Eph 2:8-10

    Both faith and works are important in a Christian's life, but our imperfect works can never be enough to earn our salvation. We can't and don't earn it; it's a gift of God's grace through faith in Christ that we are saved. True faith then produces works.

    I hope this thread continues without having to be locked.
     
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  13. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    I'll be back in a few hours. Got to go someplace now. If this thread is still up, I'll post someting I prepared for Sunday School class tomorrow.
     
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  14. mj9mm

    mj9mm

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    Pretty much mirrors my experience. Catholic grades 1-8, my views changed when in 8th grade I had some serious discussions with our Priest during class when we studied Martin Luther and the other Protestant leaders. By age 20 I was attending LCMS services. I am still in touch with Roman Catholicism through my parents but completely Lutheran in belief. It’s interesting how close the two are yet.
     
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  15. MurrayNevada

    MurrayNevada USMC (MOS 0369) (RVN 69-70)

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    n2g said:
    "Both faith and works are important in a Christian's life, but our imperfect works can never be enough to earn our salvation. We can't and don't earn it; it's a gift of God's grace through faith in Christ that we are saved. True faith then produces works."

    Beautifully said. That is precisely what led me toward Lutheranism and away from Roman Catholicism.
     
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  16. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    I'm back. My wife can't drive anymore due to her health and she goes to the Catholic church on Saturday evening and I take her. We were running just a little late tonight, but we made it. Then I go to my Church tomorrow.

    Here's that thing I'm using in Sunday school tomorrow. We are currently studying James. How timely. Ha ha. I could have included many other verses in this also. Remember all verses must be read in context with the entire Bible. Taking verses out of context and saying: 'see that proves my point' is dangerous.

    THE RELATIONSHIP OF FAITH (GRACE) TO WORKS (DEEDS)(FRUITS)

    James 2:14 and 17 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …. 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

    Is salvation by works or by faith? Do Paul and James contradict each other as Martin Luther thought? The verses above, taken alone, seem to contradict each other on the face of things.

    But Paul does address works in other places.

    Romans 2:6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

    Romans 14:12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

    I Corinthians 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

    II Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    The Gospels also place emphases on actions and works as a condition of salvation in many places. Here are a few examples

    Matthew 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

    Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

    Luke 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

    The difference between Paul in Romans and James in his letter, is in the starting point of their letters. In Romans 3, Paul is starting at the beginning of a Christians life. You cannot be saved by works. The first step of the Christian life is by accepting the free Grace of God, which is offered in forgiveness through Jesus .

    Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    James 2:17 is addressing a professing Christian who has no works. He is making the point that a man will prove his Christianity by his deeds. We are not saved by deeds, we are saved to do good deeds.

    Adapted from William Barclay
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  17. hogfish

    hogfish Señor Member

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    Who's the host? Can the host touch you?
     
  18. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Private side

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    It’s a secret.
     
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  19. Maccabeus

    Maccabeus

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    Great post.

    In an attempt to defend Luther (sometimes an easy thing, sometimes an impossible, dangerous effort), while he did call James "the epistle of straw", he didn't discount it as Scripture and, I'm not aware of him believing it held any contradiction to the Pauline letters. He just didn't have much use for it as an epistle because it didn't have clear proclamations of the Gospel message. He felt James didn't share the Good News as it should.

    In a way, Luther was both right and wrong.

    True, James doesn't have clear Gospel statements like Paul does. Fact. But, that's because James assumes the Gospel message and is addressing the "therefore" of living the Christian life or as Colson has asked "How Now Shall We Live?" and before him, Schaeffer, "How Should We Then Live?"

    James understands the Gospel clearly:
    "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." James 1:17-18

    From that foundation, he moves forward to the obedience that flows from faith.

    Luther, battling against legalism and works righteousness, just wanted to see in James more Gospel, which was his obsession.
     
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  20. BSA70

    BSA70

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    The way I see it, you have grace or legalism. You cannot intertwine the two. There is no way man can gain favor from GOD through any work or action. There is no way he can keep the law 100 percent of the time. You are saved through grace. Putting 100 percent faith in Jesus Christ to save you. Messiah Jesus died for our sins and rose again, proving he is god. That's it! Acts 2:38 repent be baptised receive the Holy Spirit
     
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