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Road raging carrier proves the anti's point.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Adams454, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. Adams454

    Adams454

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    Eye witness accounts show that the shooter was a willing participant in this incident. Apparently it went on for a while and after they finally got stopped. One guy gets out with a bat and strikes the car of the other. Then the CCW owner pulls his gun to end the fight. The way I understand it, self defense is not usable in a case like this because he was participating.

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/22751388/detail.html

    POSTED: Friday, March 5, 2010
    UPDATED: 5:52 pm EST March 5, 2010



    Witnesses say a road rage incident on the Westside led to one person being shot.
    JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- One person was hospitalized after a road-rage crash of two vehicles at the intersection of Firestone Road and Morse Avenue led to gunfire.

    The shooting occurred at about 8:30 a.m. in the 7100 block of Moses Street, a few miles from the crash scene.

    Witnesses said the two drivers were trying to run each other off the road, then they eventually came to a stop. Witnesses said one driver got out of his car with a bat and started hitting the other driver's car.

    The other driver started shooting, witnesses said. They said he fired one shot, which hit the man with the bat.

    Video: Witness: 2 'Playing Bumper Cars'



    "The were playing bumper cars, both of them," witness Don Snider said. "They were trying to ram each other until they turned off here. One jumped out with a baseball bat and started to put some licks on the other car. By that time, I done passed them and I stopped and turned around to look and the door was open, so I didn't know what was going on. I made a U-turn and went back and I seen one (man) laying on the ground."

    Jacksonville Fire-Rescue said one man was taken to Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center with non-life-threatening injuries. The name of the victim was not immediately available.

    Police were questioning several people, including the person they think fired the shot.

    "It's still under investigation, and at this point, we're still going to be investigating to see who the aggressor was and who's at fault," said Det. Jocylyne Wilson, of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

    Copyright 2010 by News4Jax.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


    ****************************************************************************
    ETA: The reporter on TV said that the shooter was a CCW holder. Apparently they left it out of the printed story.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  2. BK63

    BK63

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    Hard to tell by that clip what the whole story is.
     

  3. HerrGlock

    HerrGlock Scouts Out CLM

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    Hey, it only took 24 years for it to happen.
     
  4. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    Floridians are kinda slow catching on ain't they?

    :rofl::rofl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  5. Adams454

    Adams454

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    :rofl:Very true. But with the 24 hour MSM that we have now, I fully expect it to get blown way out of proportion. Specially with the case up in IL that SCOTUS is considering.
     
  6. HerrGlock

    HerrGlock Scouts Out CLM

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    and each and every time you see anything about it published, write in the Letters to the Editor and on the comments on the sites how it took 24 years for this to happen. Don't let one side dictate the message.
     
  7. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    Did the person actually have a FL CWP? It is not required to legally have a loaded firearm in your vehicle.
     
  8. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    This is the statute so it depends. It wouldn't break my heart based on the story if he had significant legal issues.

    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.--The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
     
  9. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

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    Am I missing something? Where in the story does it say he is a permit/license holder?
    Where in the story does it say that he even legally had possession of this gun?
     
  10. Adams454

    Adams454

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    Yes, you missed the last line I added. In the live tv news program, they said all this. They left it out of the print version.
     
  11. Wasatch

    Wasatch back again

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    I disagree with the Thread's title -- that this incident proves any anti's argument against armed citizenry. Multiply this incident by 1,000 in each shall-issue state on an annual basis, and I'll consider paying attention to it. But once or twice or even a dozen or three? No way. Nothing was proven here except that CCW'ers can have lapses in judgment and can even be stupid on occasion. Then again, everyone knows this to be true, so there was nothing to prove.

    A card in your wallet doesn't inoculate you against human error or weakness. Nor does any government-mandated training or any other 2nd-Amendment infringement make a population immune to such.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  12. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    Some perspective. If this person did have a FL CWP he is one of 864,327 as of Feb 2010. When you get numbers that big you will have all types of people.
     
  13. Poor Knight

    Poor Knight

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    This is bad for CHL defenders:

    A Houston man charged Thursday with killing a Texas Southern University police officer's teenage daughter after a hit-and-run accident said he had “done a terrible thing” when Houston police confronted him at his home, investigators said.
    Richard Calderon, 24, of the 5200 block of Heatherbloom, then handed over his 9 mm handgun to homicide investigators, court documents show. He was charged with felony murder, accused of shooting at a car and striking 13-year-old Alexis Wiley, the daughter of TSU police officer Sonya Randle.
    The Johnston Middle School seventh-grader was pronounced dead at 10:15 a.m. Thursday at Memorial Hermann Hospital-Texas Medical Center from a severe gunshot wound to the head.
    Calderon is accused of crashing into Randle's car Wednesday night and speeding away, then opening fire when Randle caught up with him, Houston police said.
    By charging Calderon with felony murder, prosecutors don't have to prove that he intended to kill the girl. The charge accuses him of intentionally and knowingly shooting at the mother's and daughter's car, a felony offense by itself, and committing an act dangerous to human life by shooting Wiley.
    Calderon has no criminal history. His bail is $50,000. Randle, 40, declined to comment when contacted by the Chronicle on Thursday.
    Houston homicide investigators said Calderon, who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun, alleged he was acting in self-defense, but his story does not match accounts provided by witnesses.
    “He's very knowledgeable about gun laws and about when he can and can't use his weapon,” said Sgt. Brian Harris of the Houston Police Department Homicide Division. “There are no indications this was self-defense.”
    The confrontation began when Calderon's 1998 Cadillac struck Randle's Nissan Altima Wednesday night and kept going. Randle told police she sped up to the Cadillac and wrote down its license plate number. She then passed the Cadillac, police said.
    Randle's daughter then told her the man in the Cadillac was chasing them, the criminal complaint shows.
    The shooting happened at 8:20 p.m. when the two cars reached the 3900 block of Westhampton. One of the bullets went through the back windshield of Randle's Altima and hit her daughter in the head. Police believe the girl was turned around in her seat, looking out the back window and talking to her mother as Calderon chased them, Harris said.
    Officers arrived to see the wounded teen lying in the street before an ambulance rushed her to the hospital. Randle gave Houston police the license plate number.
    A Houston police officer went to the home on Heatherbloom, the address where the Cadillac is registered, and was greeted by Calderon's father, Roberto Calderon, who said he knew why the officer was there and that his son had “done something terrible,” the complaint shows.
    Richard Calderon came to the door and said he had done “a terrible thing,” the report shows. He admitted firing the 9 mm handgun that he gave the officers and to shooting at Randle's vehicle, the complaint states.
    ‘Something shiny'

    Calderon told homicide investigators he thought he saw “something shiny” in the hand of the front-seat passenger and said that passenger had leaned out the car window, the complaint shows. He said he fired twice at Randle's car, then went home and covered his Cadillac with a tarp, court records show. He was arrested at his home at 2 p.m.
    One witness told police no one leaned out of the window of Randle's car. She said the man in the Cadillac was chasing Randle and her daughter before she saw gunshots coming from the Cadillac. The Cadillac's driver then backed up his car and drove away.
    “(Calderon) says because his car is quote-unquote ‘so fancy,' he's been a target of things before, so he was jumping to conclusions,” Harris said. “Because of his car, he thought perhaps they were attacking him because they wanted his car or his rims.
    “Pursuing is not acting in self-defense. He was able to clearly articulate there was no imminent threat to him — whatever threat he perceived had already passed. His story doesn't match the 10 other witnesses that we have — and that's the problem,” he said.
    “In any case, you have two families' lives that are destroyed.”
    Students at Johnston Middle School grieved the loss of Wiley, and friends set up memorial groups in tribute to her on Facebook. Wiley played cello in the school orchestra and played softball and volleyball, fellow classmates said.
     
  14. nelsone

    nelsone rank amateur

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    Yup, the Brady bunch will be making hay from this one. It's bound to happen sooner or later, of course, and it doesn't change the fact that Texas stats show a much lower propensity to commit crimes among CCW holders than the general population, but still...
    It don't look good.

    What's especially bad about this case is that his CCW enabled him to carry in his car legally - therefore his CCW was indeed a factor here. This is unlike the other cases trumpeted by the Bradys, which bring up domestic-violence and other cases where the CCW isn't even relevant.
    http://www.bradycampaign.org/studies/view/2/
     
  15. Chad Landry

    Chad Landry Cajunator® CLM

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    Wrong. Any law abiding Texas citizen can carry in their car legally, in Texas, whether licensed for concealed carry, or not.

    In fact, the licensing laws only apply to handguns.

    There are no laws in Texas on the carry of long guns in one's vehicle.

    His CHL has nothing to do with making anyone more safe. He could just as easily have been carrying an M1 Garand, completely legally, and done the same thing, regardless of license status.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
  16. Poor Knight

    Poor Knight

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    They've changed the Texas law so anyone can legally carry in their car, so the CHL really wasn't a factor there. Byt it's bad when a CHL holder does something so idiotic as to pursue a car and shoot at it -- makes us lawabiding CHL holders look bad. Of course all it really proves is that this person is an idiot and will go to jail for murder.
     
  17. geminicricket

    geminicricket NRA Life member

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    The only thing that makes CHL holders look bad is if we as a group look bad.
    We, as a group, look pretty good. The incidence rate of CHL holders doing armed crime is a rational fraction.