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Red Dot on EDC ?

22K views 106 replies 36 participants last post by  DDIEM1717 
#1 ·
Does anyone use a red dot sight on their EDC ? If you do which one , and why ?

TIA
 
#3 ·
Despite the concept, and cool factor, red dots have their own set of issues

Cost to do it right
finding the right size MOA dot for your eyesight and purpose
adjustable or not
maintenance issues (batteries, impact), harder to clean gun
bulk
different shooting technique when using red dot (you will point differently to bring the red dot on line then the iron sights).
Will accentuate bad habits or poor shooting echnique

I have 2 pistols with RDS, they are great for tactical classes, and low light excersizes.

For EDC, probably not worth the trouble. It is best to learn to shoot well without them, before getting them on your gun.
 
#7 ·
Despite the concept, and cool factor, red dots have their own set of issues

Cost to do it right
finding the right size MOA dot for your eyesight and purpose
adjustable or not
maintenance issues (batteries, impact), harder to clean gun
bulk
different shooting technique when using red dot (you will point differently to bring the red dot on line then the iron sights).
Will accentuate bad habits or poor shooting echnique

I have 2 pistols with RDS, they are great for tactical classes, and low light excersizes.

For EDC, probably not worth the trouble. It is best to learn to shoot well without them, before getting them on your gun.
Thank you for your input . I an well aware that a different type of sight will not make a bad shooter an instant good shooter .
 
#5 ·
Daily carry a gen4 glock 26 with a trijicon rmr02. Suppressor backup sights. Absolutely fantastic set up. This is the always-on, non adjustable model. Slide work by L and M precision.

Can shoot quickly and accurately inside 25 yards, and can ring steel at 100 yards.

Highly recommend it.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Great thread. Thank you for starting it. I am in the process of doing just what you are suggesting. My biggest quandry is which gun.
I think I will go with the G29.

I want the red dot to witness the iron sights so I will have the frame milled for the red dot Mount.

My eyes have deterroriated over the years and the red dot sights have brought my range scores back up.

I do fine at what is known as "defensive range" but sometimes I have a need to shoot small.

I am not a curmudgeon, I am THE Curmudgeon!
 
#15 ·
Slide Mount. Did I say frame? I'm getting old.

I agree with you. I want every advantage available to me. I'm trying a couple of each type mounts right now. I have a G19 and a G17L with red dots mounted in the rear sight positions. The G19 is fast becoming my favorite pistol to shoot.

I have a couple G17's with frame mounts, they work we on the range but they are simply too bulky to carry and they will be removed.

JPoint makes a reasonably priced sight that has held zero and has not showed any problems with recoil. However for carry I will most likely go with a Trijicon.

I am not a curmudgeon, I am THE Curmudgeon!
 
#23 · (Edited)
Dot sights have been around in competition since the early 90's. They were actually small scopes, not like today's laser dots. While they may look cool, it takes a whole different draw to acquire the dot quickly. Inside of 5-7 yards, you should train more on point shooting anyway because by the time you find the dot, you'll probably have some holes in you. The other thing is the laser dot is visible from the muzzle end in low light, and if you run a weapon mounted light it washes out when the light is on. Slide mounted dots will not hold up to a constant diet of +P stuff, which is typical of carry/duty ammo. Frame mounted dots, like the C-More, are too bulky for concealment. The only holsters for these are competition only. We are starting to see the RMR setup with backup sights in USPSA and IDPA, called Carry Optics division. And these guys are learning it takes several hundred draws to get on that dot right away. And like I always say, new magic gizmos are no substitution for mastering the fundamentals: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. Then get some gun fighter training from cops/retired cops who have been there, and done that.

If you do go with a dot, get nothing smaller than 6.25 MOA, 9's and 13's are also fine for pistol distance. Even a 13 is only 1.3 " in diameter at 10 yards. The 3.25 MOA is way to small

If you have a shot timer, you can prove that point shooting is much faster than getting a sight picture, especially within 5 yards. There used to be a shooter at our local USPSA match that didn't run sights at all, even on steel plates. He had trained himself to look down the slide, and did really well even out to 15 yards.

original dot sight, went thru like 6 batteries every match.

 
#78 ·
Dot sights have been around in competition since the early 90's. They were actually small scopes, not like today's laser dots. While they may look cool, it takes a whole different draw to acquire the dot quickly.
I didn't notice this. Can you tell me how it's different?

Inside of 5-7 yards, you should train more on point shooting anyway because by the time you find the dot, you'll probably have some holes in you.
At those distances in most self-defense situations, one isn't getting a perfect sight picture, so one doesn't need to see the RDS either.

Slide mounted dots will not hold up to a constant diet of +P stuff, which is typical of carry/duty ammo.
You don't specify how long they'll hold up, but given that there are a wide number of these devices available, sticking to one of the top brands, I went with a Trijicon, should avoid any issues. I've put well over 5,000 rounds of +P+ through my gun since mounting the RDS, never a problem.

We are starting to see the RMR setup with backup sights in USPSA and IDPA, called Carry Optics division. And these guys are learning it takes several hundred draws to get on that dot right away.
As is the case with virtually any change.

And like I always say, new magic gizmos are no substitution for mastering the fundamentals: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. Then get some gun fighter training from cops/retired cops who have been there, and done that.
I don't' think anyone advocating for getting a RDS as a "substitute for mastering the fundamentals ..." I wish these things existed when I was working. Now that I train people to use firearms defensively, I heartily endorse them.

If you have a shot timer, you can prove that point shooting is much faster than getting a sight picture, especially within 5 yards.
No sight, iron, RDS or laser will be faster at those distances, if speed is of the essence.
 
#24 ·
The Dual Illuminated RMR is the same technology that Trijicon uses in their Accupoint scopes. Actually a fiber optic integrated with tritritium. I have been running the rifle scopes in 3 gun for over 15 years and have never seen one of those fail, so there is probably no need for back sights. The other models use batters just like all laser red dots and if your dot quits at close range you just have to "sight" thru the window.

Old school laser red dots slide mounted, G24C and a G17L, Trijicon Red Dot, same as the Docter dot.




 
#25 ·
Dot sights have been around in competition since the early 90's. They were actually small scopes, not like today's laser dots. While they may look cool, it takes a whole different draw to acquire the dot quickly. Inside of 5-7 yards, you should train more on point shooting anyway because by the time you find the dot, you'll probably have some holes in you. The other thing is the laser dot is visible from the muzzle end in low light, and if you run a weapon mounted light it washes out when the light is on. Slide mounted dots will not hold up to a constant diet of +P stuff, which is typical of carry/duty ammo. Frame mounted dots, like the C-More, are too bulky for concealment. The only holsters for these are competition only. We are starting to see the RMR setup with backup sights in USPSA and IDPA, called Carry Optics division. And these guys are learning it takes several hundred draws to get on that dot right away. And like I always say, new magic gizmos are no substitution for mastering the fundamentals: stance, grip, sight picture and trigger control. Then get some gun fighter training from cops/retired cops who have been there, and done that.

If you do go with a dot, get nothing smaller than 6.25 MOA, 9's and 13's are also fine for pistol distance. Even a 13 is only 1.3 " in diameter at 10 yards. The 3.25 MOA is way to small

If you have a shot timer, you can prove that point shooting is much faster than getting a sight picture, especially within 5 yards. There used to be a shooter at our local USPSA match that didn't run sights at all, even on steel plates. He had trained himself to look down the slide, and did really well even out to 15 yards.

original dot sight, went thru like 6 batteries every match.

I guess I'm going to have to find someone in my area that has one set up on a Glock , and see what it is like to line up the dot on target .
 
#28 ·
The clothing snagging potential during the draw is a big drawback, IMO.

I'd rather have a laser. A red dot is not going to help in awkward positions like a laser would, like lying on your back and being unable to get a sight picture.
 
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#29 ·
I've been using a Lasermax guide rod laser sight for years now. Thousands of rounds and about ten years of use. Had to change the batteries about two times over the ten years of ownership, Never had a problem with coming on or cycling my gun. It is worth every penny spent. And the gun looks like a sleeper.until the red laser beam comes on.
 
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#35 · (Edited)
Lucky for you that is the exception, not the norm for your brand product. Of the few "professionals" (those that use there guns as part of their job) that I have been taught by, none will touch that brand for the "crap out factor". But good for you.

The thing about lasers is that they are hard to see in bright light, they come on when you don't want to (give up your position in the dark), again, you really have to train to trigger it on and off when you want it. In a high stress situation, that tight grip will be hard to avoid triggering the laser. iF IT CRAPS OUT, YOU WILL WASTE VALUBALE TIME CONVERTING YOUR TECHNIQUE BACK TO THE SIGHTS-- MUCH WORSE THAN WITH RDS AND BACKUP SIGHTS... but the crimson trace silouhette ads are really cool.

In low light you need a light anyways to see what you shoot. Really best to take a tactical class, where they demo some low light , room/door clearing excercises, so you realize the reality and the limitations of all that crap and mods that they sell, and learn some true flashlight techniques from the pros that really use them.
 
#33 ·
As I said in my original post, the cool factor is hard to ignore- that Avenger looking pistol is so FFing COOL... good for the "Me bad" at the range.

BUT in real life, looking for the red dot , whether that be RDS or laser is something you really must train regularly for-- your gun presentation, muscle memory, and sight habits are changed dramatically by the small sight over bore differential. If you want to go RDS, you must commit to it (I know from personal experience). The muscle memory decays much faster than using iron sights.

KISS =Keep it simple, stupid, for EDC.

Competition is a whole different realm, and reason.
 
#34 ·
I have a Viridian X5L on my night stand gun , and it is great , and they make a smaller model for the compact handguns , the C5L . They are both rail mount . The Glock 27 as everyone is aware has no rail . The Green Laser is really visible even in full sun . It also works great with the Tactical light on . Crimson Trace makes a Laser Grip for the Glock 27 , but it only comes in red . ( Red not good in high light levels )
 
#36 ·
An RMR will be of absolutely no use at the distances that nearly all critical civilian self-defense shootings occur. It can actually be a liability, especially in ECQ scenarios. I'm mainly talking distances inside 7 yards/21 feet or so and I'm referencing probable, realistic personal defense situations, not fantasies of engaging terrorists or active shooters at 25 or 50 yards. http://wilsondefense.blogspot.com/2015/03/how-important-are-handgun-sights-do-you.html
Very, very true. I'm glad you said "NEARLY" all critical shootings..... And you clarified the SD situations.
However, it takes but a single situation to not go your way to make your heirs very rich people.

And the reasn I am beleagering this point, if you are training for the 7-yard face-to-face shootout exclusively you may want to add some other scenios.

It is easy to get into a rut of sorts when training esp. when the range is set up for certain distances and its normal for us to do the easy regimen.

It scares me when I hear people (like S $ W talking about my favorite J-frame) say things like, "That is acceptable accuracy for SD." or, "Don't worry if your POA and POI arent the same at 7 yards."


What if? We love what-ifs and we must consider as well as plan for what-ifs..

What if my self defense involves a grandson and a rattlesnake?

What if my self defense involves a man with a gun who ducks behind a car or door frame?

What if my self defense involves a shooter across the street with a shotgun or rifle and and he has my wife and me pinned down behind a fire hydrant and a 3-legged dog?

What if my SD has actually become a survival situation (this comes from my 35 years in Alaska). Being able to shoot a rabbit in the head at 25 yards becomes terribly important.
We now live way out in the woods where the need to make long and somewhat tricky shots still sometimes arise.

The reason I like the red dot so much - I'm getting old and my eyes dont align and focus on sights very well. At some point we are all going to have to make changes to accommodate what we have become.
I tried all kinds of sights, changed guns, ammo, tweaked triggers, got glasses, added lights, took training, practiced and practiced, but my accuracy remained heartbreakingly dismal.

But the red dot solved my alignment/focus problems.

The disadvantages be damed.

I am not a curmudgeon, I am THE Curmudgeon!
 
#37 ·
Competition and carry are the same means to a different end. For CCW you need to shoot faster and more accurately than the one who is shooting against you, to win (survive). In competition you need to shoot faster and more accurately than everyone else in you division and class to win the stage.
 
#38 · (Edited)
"What if's" can be an endless rabbit hole. Evaluate what is most likely and prepare accordingly. We all have a finite amount of training time and I recommend spending it wisely focusing on what is realistically probable.

Competition does not effectively prepare you and develop the necessary defensive skills for an actual civilian self-defense scenario. A sport match is simply not a dynamic reactive/counter-ambush environment like a real-life self-defense. The targets do not move unpredictably, shoot back, charge you, suddenly draw a concealed weapon, ambush you with a knife or tire iron, sucker punch you and slam your head on the concrete etc. nor are you having to shoot from a compromised position or a less than ideal grip and stance, while moving/getting off the x, while defending against a ECQ assault. Many range/sport-oriented gun guys seem to have a somewhat narrow image that in a defensive shooing, they will have a certain amount of time and distance and visual a "shoot-out" type scenario, but that just isn't the norm for the vast majority of civilian defense shootings. Unless you have been involved in a lot of actual self-defense situations or have participated in well conducted simulated training(i.e. various types of Force on Force), it can be difficult to understand how quickly the dynamics as well as the distances/ranges can change, with the general default being the assailant(s) closing during the initial active assault/confrontation phase no matter the weapon. You focus on the threat(possible or confirmed) to immediately monitor activities and status (is he pulling a gun, knife, wallet, cell-phone, what are his hands doing, is he still a threat) and to track his movements(overall point A to point B, laterally, closing in etc. as well as smaller hand and body movements). You can't do those things if you are focusing on sights(or looking for a red dot) at common civilian self-defense ranges and your mental processing and physical responses will be slowed as well.

Q. If price isn't an issue, do you see the Red Dot sights adding to the potential precision of the defensive handgun? Especially if there is a "notch and blade" back up suppressor height iron sight?

A. I see them as causing more problems and opening up more potential failures (as well as increasing the steepness of the learning curve). And, of course, cost IS an issue... Having seen a lot of them on the ranges (over a long period of time, in many different students' hands), I remain unconvinced that they are a good idea for a defensive firearm. - Rob Pincus
 
#39 ·
I fail to see the negative in substantially extending the usable range of a pistol. Undoubtedly trigger control will become improved with such training, and the up close encounters become a "TV screen of death" scenario (when irons would have been ignored anyway). I for one have seen the benefit and to me it is not logical to ignore it.
 
#40 ·
Mister X, A sport match is simply not a dynamic reactive/counter-ambush environment like a real-life self-defense. Absolutely true! That is why you do both training and competition. First time I went thru a live fire simulator I dumped a guy reaching for a remote control. But I was the only one who survived the bank hostage scenario. You have the robber at gunpoint with the hostage, if he makes it into the alley, he shoots the hostage (as my partner found out). So I shot the hostage first in the lower leg, then the robber.... But then I screwed up on the liquor store robbery and shot the owner, what the hell was he doing there with a gun anyway! And it went down hill from there, pan handler pulls out a gun and I shoot him, and all 3 of his buddies.
 
#80 · (Edited)
You do what works for you.

I will do what works for me.

They are not necessarily the same thing.

Your personal experiences don't make you the center of the universe.

Edit: You realize that the image that is projected on your retina is flipped upside down right? And your brain flips it back over so that you see things as they are, or so you think? Except that for some people it doesn't work that way and they literally see everything upside down.

What other little deviations might creep in between what is and what we perceive? Some people, even though they have binocular vision, have no depth perception whatsoever. They see everything in two dimensions only.

Almost everyone knows people perceive color differently. I myself have a red/green deficiency. Some people don't even perceive color at all.

Intensity is also perceived differently by different people.

To think that what you personally experience when you look at something is the same as someone else is pretty self-centered in my opinion.

Regards,
Happyguy :)
 
#41 ·
Glide, how does that laser work in daylight? Also what does it look light in darkness with your weapon light turned on?
Works great in the bright Hawaiian sun. It's also quite accurate at both day and night. At night in almost total darkness it is bright half inch dot which flashes several times a second. There is a little flaring but the dot is solid. Just put the dot on what you want to hit and it's a done deal. Got a Surefire X300 weapon light mounted on the pistol and of course night sights so I have several sighting option available.
 
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#42 ·
Since I started this thread I had a red dot mounted on my EDC . I don't want to offend anyone here , but it wasn't one of my Glocks . I bought a Sig P320 40 compact , and had L&M Precision mill the slide for a Vortex Razor . I still love and shoot my Glocks , but I just shoot better with the Sig . Mark @ L&M did a fantastic job mounting my Razor . I pick up my target quicker with faster follow up shots with the Red Dot . I shoot with both eyes open , and my groups are tighter using the Red Dot .
 
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