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Real-Life Results vs. Bullet testing??

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Leopardtrack, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Leopardtrack

    Leopardtrack

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    The caliber/stopping/killing power debate seems to have evolved into 2 camps...let's call them "Street" vs "Testing."

    For example....as a retired-now police officer, I have done a bit of reading on terminal ballistics, viewed actual autopsy's and read autopsy reports as well BUT in essence my opinion/s are based on incidents that I have been involved in directly as well what I have seen for myself while present when other officers did the shooting....also being present and seeing the aftermath of hundreds of street shootings...both DOA's as well as victims who survived their wounds.

    The other camp would be a guy like QED. Many of us here (myself especially) have had a good time breaking his balls BUT I will be the first to admit, he is a VERY knowledgeable and well read guy who has obviously taken the time to educate himself on the subject. He HAS acquired allot of knowledge on a subject that I find boring but I will admit IS IMPORTANT.

    Bullet technology has been developed by people like him who have conducted testing etc to bring bullet tech to the point where it is today.....then I guess you can say that people like me tested it on what it was intended for.

    Which has made me think that I AM being a bit closed minded (or stubborn) on what the tech guys are saying and that a person like QED is doing the same about what people like me are saying too.

    Why should the two be mutually exclusive of each other??

    When the engineers at Ferrari develop a new technology they figure it out on the computer and make it. The second thing that is done is that their test driver gets into the car and tests it out on the track. The driver then gives the engineers his feedback and together they perfect the new product.

    I'm not in the loop but I bet that that is what goes on between weapons developers who receive feedback from police dept's, the military, and citizens shooting reports.

    So I will temper myself from now on with the above in mind:)

    What the hell...it's the Holiday Season:)
     
  2. 315

    315

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    I think you have made some valid points. I tend to use more real world results for my opinions but I do see the merits of controlled tests. My agency shoots more than it's fair share of people and over 25 years I can tell you there were times that I didn't think our ammo was up to the task. We are allowed to carry something that isn't issued, as long as it once was so there was a short period of time where myself and others bought our own carry ammo.

    Currently we issue the HST in 9, 40 and 45. The 40 and 45 has performed well in shootings so I'm sold. The 9 is new to us, again, so only time will tell if it lives up to what the lab results say.

    I'm not sure if we ever share our results with the ammo manufacturers or not. I've never heard that we have but I would assume some agencies must. When they produce hunting bullets they have the luxury of sending their product out on hunts, especially cull hunts and can get a fast return on the performance of a specific bullet and tweak it as necessary. Self defensive handgun bullets would take quite a bit longer to obtain the real world results.
     

  3. Glock 23 Nutter

    Glock 23 Nutter

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  4. peng

    peng

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    He could have removed the half empty bottle of Whiskey while filming with guns. :supergrin:

    Not a good optic as they say.
     
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  5. FullClip

    FullClip NRA Benefactor CLM

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    There's waaaaay too many variables at play in "real life" shootings.
    Was the person on the receiving end of the bullet a 150 pound 60 year wino old taken by surprise, or was it somebody who's built like Rob Gronkowski, pumped up on adrenaline and meth?? A .25 auto may take down the former, while an elephant gun may be inadequate on the latter.
     
  6. Leopardtrack

    Leopardtrack

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    LOL I didn't see that!
     
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  7. Glock 23 Nutter

    Glock 23 Nutter

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    Probably for medicinal purposes.

    :supergrin:




    Nutter
     
  8. BFN

    BFN

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    There are more than two camps:

    The hunter: The round works on deer etc. so it must work on humans - can be useful info.

    The engineer: M.E.'s, metallurgists, aerodynamicists, fluid dynamics, etc. - we need them.

    The reader of statistical data: Fackler, Marshall etc. - good if objective.

    The calculator: thinks ft. lbs., momentum, velocity etc. equate directly to effectiveness - always biased to their chosen round.

    The ER doctor: great information if objective.

    The autopsy attendant: focused on deaths, rather than who survived gunshot wounds.

    The LEO with a few kills: anyone who has not killed a person knows nothing - stuck on their own bravado and biases, discounts the above if anything disagrees with them.
     
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  9. Leopardtrack

    Leopardtrack

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    [QUOTE="BFN, post: 24832491,
    The LEO with a few kills: anyone who has not killed a person knows nothing - stuck on their own bravado and biases, discounts the above if anything disagrees with them.[/QUOTE]

    So I guess that we all know now how you feel about LEO opinions...

    Since you threw you hat in the ring now, what brings you to YOUR opinion?
     
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  10. BFN

    BFN

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    For what its worth, M.E. degree and work in that field, 50 yrs owning guns, hunting, but no gunfights.
     
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  11. TeaDub

    TeaDub

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    I have been interested in wound ballistics for a long time. It started early in my LE career. Being around shootings (dozens vs the hundreds for others) and the fact that my life potentially depended on the subject, had me looking further.

    While mandated with what to carry at work, I always tried to pick both caliber and projectile that had some crossover between the two camps when off duty. Marshall always caught crap for using an imperfect system and even more for trying to tie it to future projections. I still believe his original work had some merit. If 20-25 years ago, both Marshall and Fackler liked a load, I thought my odds improved.

    Real life can't account for every variable. Pick an established load and then train. Then train some more.

    I will add that while I still enjoy the topic, it is difficult to wade through page after page after page after......of people that talk past each other.
     
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  12. dkf

    dkf

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    Ha. I've worked with my fair share of engineers over the years. Lets just say LEOs are not the only ones whom think very highly of their own opinions and bravado.(even when proof demonstrates it to be wrong)
     
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  13. QED

    QED

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    Are you an engineer?
     
  14. Leopardtrack

    Leopardtrack

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  15. peng

    peng

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    My opinion only, the LEO in your example might be the worst guy of the bunch as far as contributing to the understanding of the issue.

    Small samples sizes (like 1 or 2) are not useful for statistically significant analysis. If it were me I sure as heck would be anything but objective about the subject.

    Now the person who collects thousands of these events and scrubs them for relevant data is a different story - still small sample size but gets better with each entry. Any analysis that deals with this complex situation with almost limitless variables has to be a living document that describes what is known at any point in time, and it can evolve over time with things like advancements in projectiles and tactics.

    The key is to describe all the variables and conditions accurately so a wrong conclusion cannot be easily drawn. Much easier said than done.
     
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  16. QED

    QED

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    It's refreshing to see at least one person realize this!
     
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  17. Alabusa

    Alabusa

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    That in and of itself is the problem. As one part of the equation evolves, so do the variables. Thus, there will never be a solution to the equation, only continuous evolutions.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
     
  18. ReaPer105

    ReaPer105

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    The problem with real life studies is, by the time you get enough for a good and thorough review, the bullet designs change. How many police agencies are shooting the same brand and bullet type of ammo they shot 15 years ago?
    Probably some, but not most.
     
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  19. QED

    QED

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    This is what we have here; except he really doesn't know what he doesn't know and obviously doesn't care. Typical.
     
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  20. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    To me, real world shootings are interesting and worth looking at. But ultimately, it's anecdotal. Even in large agencies with a lot of shootings, there are just too many variables at play to draw solid conclusions. ..... at least with the access a private citizen has. Maybe insides can get more/better info.

    I think the muzzle energy camp is fallacious. After shot placement what matters is penetration, then expansion. Reducing bullet effectiveness to a mathematical formula may be comforting, but not necessarily accurate.

    For me, consistent test methodologies (like Lucky Gunner) are the way to go. I think the overpenetration argument is overblown... misses certainly are a bigger issue. So I go for maximum penetration. I like to see 16"+ and proceed on the assumption that once you throw the reality of the human body into the situation, you should count on about half the penetration you get in gel.


    If you plan for that, and get more you're good. But if you plan for 12" and get 6"... you could be in a world of hurt.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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