Rate the skill

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by PhoneCop, Nov 6, 2010.

  1. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    I post this here because it were most of the people whose opinion I respect post.

    Rate the skill.

    On a scale of 0 - 100, rate the "classes of shooters".

    With 0 being the ability of the typical person who has never picked up a handgun in his life (typical mind you, there are exceptions to evey rule).

    With 100 being the absolute best gunners (however you wanna decide the best).

    Rate 'em.

    Suggested classes are (but feel free to add your own):

    Nevers (never touched a gun)
    Weekenders (gun owner shoots a box on the weekend)
    Patrolman (LEO, trained, does annual qual)
    Patrolman+ (patrol who visits the range outside annual qual)
    Mil-P (military members who carry a sidearm)
    Mil-R (military members who carry only a rifle)
    Mil-Spec (military members with specialized pistol training)
    SWAT (LEO SWAT)
    Gamer-D (to GM) (from D to GM in USPSA/IPSC or whatever to Master for IDPA)
    Schooly (guys that attend lots of schools, nothing more)

    Give 'em ranges i.e Patrolman (20 - 40) if that be what you think.

    Share your thoughts, leave other's opinions alone (start a new thread if you think XxxxxXxxxx's opinion is bunk).
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  2. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    "Skill" as in the ability to run the gun? Or as in the ability to solve problems with the gun as a tool?
     

  3. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    Ah, the heck with waiting. :tongueout: I'm going to define the problem as one of actual real-world employment towards a goal, not one of range (any type) artificiality. And I added two categories.

    Nevers: 0 because you said so in the OP.
    Weekenders: 5-25. Skilled enough not to hurt himself or another good guy.
    Patrolman: 10-33. Doesn't hurt himself or another good guy, wins almost all the confrontations. Biggest advantage is that he's accustomed to the dynamics of fights.
    Patrolman+: 30-90 Wide range here, with access to as much training as he's willing to attend. Lives with the pistol. Lacks some team-oriented stuff.
    Mil-P: 10-20 The military pistol isn't important, doesn't get emphasized and is often issued to non-dedicated personnel
    Mil-R: 15-40 They might lack the platform skills, but understand combat better than most and use the tool to get what they want.
    Mil-Spec: 90-100 No expense is spared at the top of the pyramid, they have the attitude and (especially now) the experience to make it work.
    SWAT: 75-95 The best are indistinguishable from .mil skills. LAPD and FBI HRT for example are stellar.
    Gamer-D: 50-80 Technical masters. Tactical skills are hit/miss and they tend to separate gun stuff from real world stuff. Lack of thinking/moving/motivated opponents and bystanders (as opposed to targets) is another minus.
    Schooly: 20-60 Schools are expensive, so not many guys go to many. Tendency to stick with repeat courses from the same source. If broad-based, can match basic LE SWAT in everything but experience.

    Street Rat: 1-20 Knows what he gets from word of mouth and Hollywood and wins because he cheats.
    Banger: 10-40 Has been in fights, has been shot at, doesn't care about you, going to prison or even about himself. Form often looks ugly, but he knows all about ambush and attack and has no moral qualms about using the pistol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  4. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I have to agree w/ Sam's list pretty much. I have seen/shot w/ some small town SWAT guys shooting pretty average, & most street cops I would rate about 50 tops. SOme of the seasoned guys are as good as any large dept SWAT guy.
    A couple groups I think are missing:
    Dedicated CCW: guy/gal that carries & practices weekly, trains annually, 50-60+.
    CCW, carries but never trains: almost as bad as the weekenders, 20-25.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  5. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Sam's list is what I am looking for. One doesn't need to explain their opinion. I fear that will lead to degeneration of the post into argument about whose right in their opinion.

    But was a great start.

    Others?
     
  6. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Sorry, Sam.

    I posted the thread and then shortly went to bed.

    I was think narrowly on shooting skill, ability to run a gun. Draw, shoot accurate at speed, reload, remediate, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  7. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith

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    The only problem I have with LEO and military part is they tend to use team tactics and have backup/assist close at hand. They don’t do lone wolf stuff. That is not the same as having to deal with it alone.

    The gamer/schoolboys have it better than nevers/weekenders but unless they are in a business that attracts attacks like jewelry stores, stop-n-robs, pizza delivery, etc… they rarely would have experienced the real thing, and that includes me as I don’t go out late at night (except last Friday night as I had to work overtime from 11:30PM to 8 AM, and was shocked at how many people are out and about at 1 AM!)

    Do note Lance Thomas was not a gamer/schoolboy and was closer to a nevers than a weekender yet he overcame great odds three times!

    The street rat/banger is the most dangerous one. Technique may be terrible but their willingness overcomes a lot of that lack of finesse. They don’t care, they don’t hesitate, and they usually strike first.

    Say do any of you watch the A&E show 48? That show will teach you a lot about the psychology of the street rat/banger and the people around them.

    Deaf
     
  8. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Def,

    Could you throw some numbers to 'em?

    I'm polling for something I can quantify. Skills assessment.

    Thanks
     
  9. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith

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    I'll think about it Phonecop.

    But I do say the banger would be well in the 50s and up cause like J.B. Books said, "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't."

    And alot of them won't. It's their culture.

    Deaf
     
  10. degoodman

    degoodman Out of Columbus

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    You know, there's alot of different things you can do with a handgun, and "fighting" is only one of them. I'm taking my stab with that in mind. My assessment is going to be on "gun skills" not tactics, because it is my belief that those are two very separate animals and one can be extremely adept by one measure, and suck rocks by the other. I'm scoring the generalized gun stuff until someone gives me a set of tactics or situations to rate against.

    You'll note in my argument below that there's alot of compression at the top of the scale, and that's for a reason. I believe that most shooters, even casual shooters who go through less than 500 rounds a year can have 70% or more of the skills of the grand masters. Developing that last 30% requires increasingly specialized skills that have narrower applicability to specific shooting situations, and require relatively greater training and practice to develop and maintain.

    Suggested classes are (but feel free to add your own):

    Nevers (never touched a gun) 0 - 50: One thing that continually amazes me is that people who have never touched a gun, and often who are afraid of guns are often safer on the range than those who have been desensitized by years of gun use and gun handling. Gun safety is a gun skill and probably accounts for fully half of the score in my book.

    Weekenders (gun owner shoots a box on the weekend) 25 - 75: Grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger control. those skills account for a big portion of what's left in terms of shooting skills. A weekender on a square range can get and maintain those skills just fine.

    Patrolman (LEO, trained, does annual qual) 40 - 80: Without knowing the character of the training or qualifications, some of these guys could be barely better than Barney Fife, others may be entering the top tier of shooters.

    Patrolman+ (patrol who visits the range outside annual qual) 40 - 80: Same statement as above. The character of the practice and training is what delivers skills, not that he did the same routine as the weekender once a month.

    Mil-P (military members who carry a sidearm) 25 - 80: Military pistol users run the range of skills. Some are staff officers or specialists who get a pistol instead of a rifle just so they have something that shoots, and they're told to carry with an empty chamber just because they don't exactly shoot every other day. Others like Provost Marshall's and MP's on post have a pistol as their primary firearm, and train accordingly.

    Mil-R (military members who carry only a rifle) 25 - 75: These guys are weekenders. Firearms safety, grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger control. Its not all that different from one type of gun to another.

    Mil-Spec (military members with specialized pistol training) 75 - 100: This is the first class of guys that I can think of where you're really entering into deep and specialized training in pistolcraft, and actually start to focus on the minutae. The key words being "specialized pistol training"

    SWAT (LEO SWAT) 60 - 100: Without the words "specialized pistol training" there's more unknown here. Much as in real SWAT units across LE agencies, these guys could run the gambit from barely more than advanced patrolmen, through specialized operators on dedicated teams.

    Action Gamer-D (to GM) (from D to GM in USPSA/IPSC or whatever to Master for IDPA) 60 - 100: Gamers run guns. That's what they do. Todd Jarrett, Robbie Laetham, Jerry Mickulek, Dave Sevigny, Jesse Abbate, etc. As a group, if there's something that can be done with a pistol, they can do it, and teach others how they did.

    Accuracy Gamer 60 - 90: What these folks usually lack in speed, they make up for in putting the bullet where it needs to go on the first shot, often when the ballistics of the round in question are going to dictate that you need hold-over, and maybe alot of it...

    Schooly (guys that attend lots of schools, nothing more) 25 - 90: You don't really break into the top tier of shooters without exercising those skills. Guys that go to school AND work with a tactical team, or compete in an action or accuracy game end up as the top shooters. My experience is that guys who JUST go to school, and not something else to go with it, get embarassed on the score sheet from the match or the qualifications. There are more of these guys in the bottom half of the range than the top IMHO.

    CCW 0 - 75: Some states require nothing more than a clean record and a pulse to get a CCW, others require training ranging from a few hours to a couple days. I have witnessed a CCW holder who had a cocked .38 fall out of a purse onto a grocery conveyor. I have also seen some (who were usually gamers too) who give good competetion at the local matches too.

    Hunter 75 - 95: You get one bullet, and one chance to put it somewhere that counts. Missing by a little bit is worse than missing by alot. ballistics, elevation, windage, environmental conditions, funny shooting positions, hiking all day through the mountains for a week looking for the opportunity to make that one shot all conspire to give that fella alot of work to do. It takes stones to be a handgun hunter.

    Criminal Street Rat 0 - 50: Maybe that gun has the right caliber rounds in it. Maybe it will fire. Maybe he won't shoot himself with it, drop it, or have it taken away by anyone who cares to. The gun is there to intimidate, not because he has the first actual clue what to do with the damn thing.

    Criminal Soldier 25 - 80: This guy is a different animal, and he is in fact out there in the wild. This guy kills cops, commits gang murders and gang assasinations, he doesn't always wear a black hat, and there isn't creepy music playing in the background when you walk up to him. Good Guys don't have a monopoly on gun skills, and this guy can, and WILL outdraw you if you're not paying attention.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  11. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    Doh ?
    http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp


    New Findings from the FBI about Cop Attackers & Their Weapons
    (From the Force Science News provided by The Force Science Research Center.)

    Excerpts:

    Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

    * show signs of being armed that officers miss;

    * have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;

    * practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

    * have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study’s researchers, "you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street..."


    "Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

    "More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers, the study found. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)"
     
  12. degoodman

    degoodman Out of Columbus

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    I don't disagree with any of the above, but its also important to include the context of the information. The above study covered a group of incidents where there was an Officer Involved Shooting, in which both the offender and the Officer survived the incident to be interviewed later on. The percentages published covered ONLY offenders who had already, on at least one occasion, chosen to engage an LEO with gunfire. And while those percentages are startling, they also cover a very narrow slice of criminal offenders and are not reflective of the criminal population as a whole.

    I think that's important information to include, because you only quoted one of my two classes of criminal I "created", and the one cited was NOT the one covering this group of folks.
     
  13. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    Hey, I created them first. :crying:

    But you're right. There is a clear distinction between the street rat and the hard-core banger (can't bring myself to call them "soldiers"). Frankly, that probably skews the advice we see about carry issues and tactics. For example, the "well, it's better than no gun" line of thought may very well pay off when you confront some trailer-dweller that decides to boost your stereo. But when you run into the Zetas, MS-13, or the guy who's grown up behind bars, there's a whole different dynamic at work.
     
  14. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    You make a good point.

    I didn't remember that the officer had to survive for the offender to be interviewed - but if you say it does, I'm sure it is true. This issue, ie. the survival of the officer, is probably not going to skew the data much if at all.

    However, it only includes the offenders which were apprehended. If the findings in the survey also applies to the offenders which were not apprehended, that means that there are criminals on the street with the same "training", experience, attitude, etc.; these are reasonable assumptions.

    And although, they will/have use(d) lethal force on LE, it is unlikely that they are only willing to use this type of force on LE - and may very well be more likely the use this training/experience/attitude during crimes against non-LE.

    My point is that criminals are not usually considered to have good shooting techniques and tactics; which may very well be a poor assumption. The fact alone that they are willing to use a deadly weapon in the commission of a crime means that they are probably willing to repeat these crimes, and criminal behavior usually escalates in the severity of subsequent crimes. The more crimes they commit, the greater likely hood that they will get "better" at committing them.

    I don't intend for this to be a thread-drift from the OPs request, but rather a look at the skill level of this particular "category", based upon an existing study however limited in context it might be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2010
  15. W4CNG

    W4CNG

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    I fit into the Action Gamer at B Class. I can outshoot most police all day and almost other CCW folks that go to the range now and then. I shoot IPSC B Class Limited and feel well in that class. As a CCW holder in my state and carrying on a daily basis, I look to have a higher calling than all others and believe that I need to shoot better than the street folks that I may come into contact with. I shoot every two weeks at my membership range and reload tons of bullets that enable me to do that at a minimum cost. I'm not a cop but if you challenge me you very likely will not be on the winning side. I also completed two CRG classes this year to improve my basis training skills that I practice every day at the range. (CRG is Close Range Gunfighting Classes).
     
  16. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    Considering we had a LEO benefit 3-gun match here a while back and the top law enforcement shooter (SWAT) from a 200 mile radius was mid-pack of about 40 shooters.
    I wasn't that impressed with their ability to run the guns they're issued.
    The match was designed from the start to even the equipment playing field, so it was strictly a case of them being completely outclassed when it came to trigger pressing and gun manipulation.
    Poor pistol shooting and glacial carbine/shotgun reloads were their biggest problems.
    Another thing I noticed while RO'ing was they did fine in "traditional" shooting positions on traditional targets, but as soon as they hit an awkward position or dynamic targets things went downhill fast.
     
  17. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Please consider throwing some numbers to to your observations. You've maybe not seen representative samples across the board, but collectively we might have. Your opinion is a valid as anyone else.
     
  18. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Please consider throwing some numbers to to your observations. You've maybe not seen representative samples across the board, but collectively we might have. Your opinion is a valid as anyone else.
     
  19. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    degoodeman,

    Let me ask you to narrow your spread down from full spectrum to maybe just the 1st standard deviation of the groups.

    You're correct in identifying the full spread. But in reality where those first standard deviation, where some 69% of the total dwell is more illustrative.

    For instance, we agree there are rare birds that can pick up a gun for the first time and shoot really well. I had a student the other week who was very impressive. But he was not representative. He eclipsed the majority.

    So while you rate the nevers as 0 - 50, how do you really rate the core majority of the nevers? Not all suck to 0, few rate a 50... so 10 - 30? 15-25? 5 - 20?

    How about the rest?

    Much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  20. W4CNG

    W4CNG

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    I rank my self in the 80's range. Master Class and Grand Masters will outshoot me all day unless their gun goes down. Practice does make better and competetion against others gives you a chance to see how you do on that day. I have a yearly membership at my range and use it all I can. Unfortunately many of our public servants do not get the time or ammo to do the same. This is why I shoot as much as I do. To protect my loved ones when it counts.