close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

range report: Liberty Training Rifle

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by ArmoredSheepdog, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Howdy Guys :wavey:

    Just got finished (mostly) putting the finishing touches on a Liberty Training Rifle I plan on taking to an Appleseed event this summer or fall, sighted it in and shot my first groups. The rifle build is basically following the advice and links in this thread. I havent seen a whole heck of a lot of reviews out there from those taking the plunge, so I thought what the hey, do one if I have one. I actually encountered some problems that other folks might want a heads'up on.

    http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/35390-The-Liberty-Training-Rifle

    Tech Sights: I got the TSR 200 with their front sight post tool, which also adjusts the rear windage knob, and their separate wrench thingy that is used to adjust the elevation on the rear knob.

    In the package they send you, you get some very clear and easy to understand instructions on how to go about removing the front sight post on your 10/22 and then install the new one. I used a steel pin punch I got from Lowes, and a very light autobody hammer to start driving the front sight post out. After it got down about 1/8th of the total width, it seemed to get stuck until I used a regular claw hammer and really gave it a few good smacks, at which point it just flew out entirely the rest of the way on the final swing rather than being a gradual shift.

    The rear aperture sight is simple to install, and I secured it with red Loctite thread sealer. I had a hard time finding the Loc-Tite, its over in the glue section at Lowes if you go looking for it. The rear peephole itself was actually loose and would twist sideways in both directions to about 10'oclock and 2'oclock, which I found a little concerning and was planning to secure at a later time with yet more loc-tite, but wound up fixing later during sighting.

    You also get a bunch of extra goodies with your Tech Sight I wasn't expecting, that being a bunch of Appleseed documentation and some target templates, which I put to good use. The target overlapping the rest of the papers is their standard 25 meter "Redcoat" target.

    [​IMG]

    The Uncle Mike's swivel studs and sling swivels went in pretty easily. I did not follow the instructions for countersinking the machine screw, rather just drilled pilot holes slightly thinner than the studs and applied red Loc-tite to them. The sling is a cheapy $5 Allen 1" sling I plan on replacing once I find something I like better.

    Apparently my rifle came with an extended mag release already installed, this might be a standard part on their newer models. I plan on doing the bolt-hold open modification at a later date.

    Sighting in:

    When I got to the range and started sighting this sucker at 25 meters, it was shooting high about 7" and left about 3". I tried doing all my elevation adjustment at the front post as if sighting in an AR15, but at one point the front post unscrewed to the point that the retention pin holding it in place was no longer catching, and I was still about 3" too high. When looking through the rear post, I could actually see UNDER the front sight post. So after ratcheting the front post back down to the point that I couldnt see through a gap under it.

    I did the remainder of my elevation adjustments at the rear post, and now it works fine. It was during the rear elevation adjustment that the rear peephole actually tightened down enough to not rotate. I assume it was just loose due to being barely into its threadings when it was shipped.

    A word on sight picture: For whatever reason, the rear peephole on these Tech-Sights appear somewhat fuzzy unless I cant my head to the left moreso than I do with my AR15 (I shoot left handed); my dad also has this issue and he is a righty. So it does take some fiddling around and experimenting so that you can clearly see the front sight post ( I miss having a charging handle to press my nose against) Finding a consistent cheek-weld is going to be part of getting used to this rifle.

    Field Stripping: The video Ruger has on youtube for taking this rifle down is somewhat deceptive. My 2 bottom pins don't come out anywhere near as easily (although the large upper takedown pin usually just falls out all on its own) and require quite a bit of force to hammer out. You want to be careful with how you orient the trigger group, my hammer spring fell out of the trigger assembly by accident, and the two tiny pins holding the trigger assembly together wiggled out while removing the normal takedown pins, and they are kind of a pain in the butt to get back in. I suggest keeping the trigger group pointing up as if you were going to fire it during the entire disassembly to make sure nothing falls out on you.

    Here are my first groupings with the rifle from this weekend, all shot at approx 25 meters (25 large steps, so +/- 5 yards I guess). I've got some definite room for improvement, want to bring those groups down to at least half-dollar size.

    Hope this helps someone who is considering building one. Overall likeability 9/10.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    These are 1 1/2 inch ink stamped squares on computer paper. I need to find some better ink for these. The redcoat targets were just posterboard templates spraypainted on.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

  3. gatorglockman

    gatorglockman

    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Great write up and pics! Very good info. Anyone else out there attend an Appleseed event before?
     
  4. Usagi

    Usagi

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Juliet, TN
  5. 76again

    76again

    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Yes. Attend with friends, children, grandchildren. If you're a rookie you'll be on the right (marksmanship) path for life. If you're a shooter very likely you'll still come away with something - at least new friends. Great instructors. Do it, even if you have to drive.
     
  6. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Went down to the range today to do some practicing with my Liberty Training Rifle. Not my best day to put it conservatively. Overcast, slightly chilly and fighting a headache all day.
    Started out pretty decent with the Appleseed 200 yard simulator shot at 25 meters.
    [​IMG]
    Moved on to the smaller 300 yard simulator, groups started to widen up already.
    [​IMG]
    Decided to try some shooting from standing rather than sitting, boy was that harder than it looks. Sight picture changed substantially, need to get my arms used to holding the rifle out steady. Probably do some nightly dry firing to develop those muscle groups.
    [​IMG]
    At this point, the freakin front sight post on my rifle FELL OUT of the dovetail! After I slid it back in, I used the allen wrench supplied by Tech-Sights and doubled down on the front sight post retention screw, this appears to have fixed the problem. I topped it off with some more red Loctite when I got some.
    Had to readjust my rear sight for elevation and windage and basically re-zero the rifle after that little debacle.
    Here's the last group before I went home
    [​IMG]
    next trip I am going to try using red spray paint instead of black for the smaller targets, and see if that helps with the grouping. A black front sight post on top of a black target may not be the smartest thing in the world.
    here are the templates I am using, made out of posterboard
    [​IMG]
    the larger ones I spray on to a sheet of freezer paper, for the smaller one I just use computer paper.


    Hopefully next trip I will do better.
     
  7. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
  8. xls177

    xls177

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
  9. socalserf

    socalserf

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    I've got a couple of Liberty Training Rifles.
    They are almost the same as yours.
    The exception is a Volquartsen Target Hammer.
    http://www.natchezss.com/brand.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=VQ&prodID=VQVC10TH&prodTitle=10/22
    The stock trigger on the 10-22s I bought must have been 8 or 9 pounds and rough!
    The target hammer gave these rifles a super sweet trigger breaking at 3-4 pounds, just wonderfully clean breaks.
    So far more than a dozen people have shot Rifleman scores with these loaners, including myself.

    Appleseed rocks, and Liberty Training Rifles are great too.
     
  10. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
  11. ArmoredSheepdog

    ArmoredSheepdog radical moderat

    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    huh, my trigger actually breaks pretty smoothly and doesnt feel anywhere NEAR 8lbs, which would be like shooting my P226 in double action lol. I must have scored a newer model with upgraded features from the factory.
     
  12. socalserf

    socalserf

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    And if it works, don't fix it.
     
  13. ROGER4314

    ROGER4314 Friends Call Me "Flash"

    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    1,452
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Location:
    East Houston
    Anyone else out there attend an Appleseed event before?

    You guys seem like you had a ball at the Appleseed matches. My lady and I had a very different experience and I'd like your feedback on it.

    <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/RM426C%7E1.FLA/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> Bonnie and I went to an Appleseed in November. It was interesting, positive and we learned a lot about the Revolutionary war. Between shooting sets, we had a story telling time where they would tell us how the Brits and the colonists finally came to burn gunpowder against each other. That was all pretty neat.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    We have been match shooters for about 7 years and knew what to expect.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    On the down side, Bonnie and I are experienced shooters so we pretty well knew what to do. I felt bad for some of the Dads who brought their kids. The program is VERY fast paced and anyone who doesn't pick up the techniques immediately, gets left behind.

    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    One kid was about 10 years old and we seldom saw him hit the target backing cardboard. They just left him to fail. I heard him say repeatedly to his Dad "I want to go home" and I don't blame him a bit. His Dad tried to help him but he was also trying to keep up with his own shooting so the kid failed to master even fundamental skills. The worst part was that they just let him fail.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    There are two minute prep times for about 60 second stages. The two minutes started from the point of our huddle meetings. If you were out on the end of the firing line, you had about a minute left to prepare. There were no breaks and if you went to the potty, you'd miss something.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    Our first day was 9 hours long with a snatch as you can lunch. We were sunburned, broiled and dehydrated. The cost? Guys pay about $40/day. Women are free. There was a $10/day per person range fee.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    The rifles to use? About 75% of the rifles used were Ruger 10-22&#8217;s. Some were scoped and some had Tech Sights (peep sights) installed.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    Summed up, If you are a great shooter, know it all and want some pointers to make some improvements, the Appleseed will work. If you are experienced, YOUNG, and can drop from standing into positions without effort, you'll be fine.

    If you are less experienced in position shooting or OLD (like Bonnie & I) you will have a heck of a time keeping up or shooting well. They will cut no slack and if you are going to fail, you will fail and they'll leave you in the dust with barely a word.

    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    They seem to want women and children to participate but they simply let them sink like a rock. I do NOT recommend letting a lady or a kid that you care about learn about shooting that way. You'll just burn them out!

    I am a teacher with 22 years experience. I believe that if they would coach the students until they achieved mastery, everyone would be better off. Don't move on until everyone gets it right. If additional coaching is needed, then provide that. That's how it should have been done. That is NOT what happened.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    I wanted to attend an Appleseed for years and have read Fred's articles for a very long time. Now, after our experiences, I simply cannot support them.

    I met some really nice adults and kids who were totally turned off by the experience. That's just a daxxxx shame.
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
    Flash
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  14. Usagi

    Usagi

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Juliet, TN
    Roger,

    Unfortunately what you experienced seems to be happening at Appleseeds all over. It is the monster in the closet of the organization.

    What's worse, the Appleseed zombies on the internet forums poo-poo anybody who even hints at the Appleseed not being 100% perfect. Even an attempt at an objective review.

    To top it off, the powers that be in the Appleseed program are very resistant to change. They have little understanding of how an educator would teach and how that applies to what they do. They are too busy trying to impress other shooters with their antiquated ways.


    All that said...
    I love the program, and it does have a lot of good stuff going for it. I think with some MINOR changes, the program would really shine and be much more appealing for a wider variety of folks.

    Changes Appleseed should make.

    But, the mere fact that I have suggested this will bring out the hordes of brain-dead, brainwashed Appleseed zombies spouting off that the program is perfect and how-dare-we-suggest-it-needs-improvement. Remember, Rule #1 of Appleseeds!

    As a martial arts teacher of 25 years, I welcome all suggestions to my teaching styles and methodology. I constantly try to improve. Appleseed would do well to copy that mindset. It would seem the Appleseed program has recently taken a small step in that direction.

    Also, I must point out that I have spoken in detail with several shoot-bosses within the organization. They would like to see some of the changes I suggest - and they have other changes they'd like to see, too.

    The number one change I see people asking for is the AQT times - lengthen every stage to something along the lines of 90 seconds - 2 minutes per stage. This would allow the very young, infirm, elders, and others not quite in perfect health or great shape to enjoy every stage of the shooting, too.

    Until Appleseed wakes up and realizes the lost potential here, I have made some suggestions for those who want to attend, or have a question about attending. These suggestions directly contradict what some from the organization may write or say (especially in internet forums) - but it comes from a shoot boss - through me - as a strong suggestion so that the time you spend at an Appleseed will be enjoyable, as well as maximizing how much you learn.
     
  15. socalserf

    socalserf

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    There are some problems with the program.
    We teach at a fast pace, and try to get a weeks worth of information into people in a weekends time. 'Drinking from a fire hose of knowledge' as we say, is not always comfortable.

    If we have enough instructors, one can hold the hand of a slow learner, and that sometimes happens.
    But, as a volunteer organization that charges a minimal or no fee for instruction, it might be unrealistic to expect a one on one teacher to student ratio at every shoot.

    Very often those who have the most problems are those who have poorly fitting equipment, or poorly working equipment.
    A small statured shooters, male, female, or child, will never shoot well on a stock that is too long for them.
    Ditto for those with eye issues trying to use iron sights.
    We always ask that people bring a rifle that fits them, is broken in, is using ammo that will cycle, and has been zeroed.
    It doesn't always this happen.
    Some instructors have put thousands of dollars of their own money into loaner rifles and scopes to help address these well known issues.

    Some kids do very well, and others not so much.
    No different from the adults really.

    I always recommend that people get Fred's Guide to Becoming a Rifleman.
    And the AQTs that goes with them.
    http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/acc.asp
    That way when you show up at the shoot, you know your positions, and understand most of the information. Do your homework and come preparred, and you'll get allot from the program.

    Appleseed is great, but not perfect.
    BTW, if you’d like to help, the more volunteers we get the better the instruction.
     
  16. ROGER4314

    ROGER4314 Friends Call Me "Flash"

    Messages:
    1,460
    Likes Received:
    1,452
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Location:
    East Houston
    That way when you show up at the shoot, you know your positions, and understand most of the information. Do your homework and come prepared, and you'll get a lot from the program.


    Your post was very polite and my response will be the same. I do not, however, agree with you in any way, shape or form about the Appleseed attitude.

    It is NOT OK to bring a kid or an inexperienced lady to a training program and let them fail. Instead of introducing them to our sport, you drive them away.

    It is NOT OK to let newbees come out, roast them in the sun and drive them relentlessly with a tight schedule. You will poison their attitudes against the activity.

    It is NOT OK to see a child who is obviously not getting the instruction and allow him to fail without assistance of any kind.

    It is NOT OK to invite older (60+) shooters with disabilities to attend, discuss with them accommodations before hand that would help them participate then to not allow the changes.

    It is NOT OK to see that a majority of the shooters can not accomplish the task within a time frame and continue to blow them away with failure.

    It is NOT OK to allow a few to succeed, work with them and let the others fail. That is NOT how you bill the event to the public.

    The attitude you display in that post says it all. "Come to an Appleseed and if you can't cut it, we will let you fail." Sorry, I will not support you.

    Flash
     
  17. Lothar

    Lothar Noob

    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Location:
    New Castle, CO
    So is everything shot at 25 meters?
     
  18. Usagi

    Usagi

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Juliet, TN
    In most Appleseeds, yes.

    Some Appleseeds are held on ranges that can accomodate 500-yard shooting. These will try to do some of the real long rang firing.

    BUT - 90%+ will be at 25yards.
     
  19. socalserf

    socalserf

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Rodger,
    I'm sorry that you had such a negative experience.
    I don't believe that it is representative of the program as a whole though.

    If I could ask a favor, would you post an after action report at the Appleseed forum?
    Find the shoot you were at and file it there, it will get the attention that it deserves. We really do what feed back, good, bad, or in this case ugly.
    That is how we learn.
    You can simply take your original post here and cut and paste.
    http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=8.0

    Hey Lothar;
    As Usagi said, most of what we do is at 25m.
    Many people underestimate how challenging this can be.
    To find out for your self, take a blank piece of paper and with a Magic Marker
    make a one inch square.
    Post it at 25 meters and keep all of your shots in it using field positions, standing, sitting/knelling, or prone.

    Unless you shoot High Power, or NRA Small Bore, it is unlikely that you can.

    When you can shot into the one inch square, you will be shooting into 4 MOA.
    That is the Rifleman standard.
    When you can shoot this well, I'd recommend going to a Rifleman’s Boot Camp.
    There we can shoot all the way out to the limit of your rifle.
    At the last shoot in Piru CA they shot out to 1000 yards, in high wind.
    Read these AARs(after action reports);
    http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=21.0
     
  20. Usagi

    Usagi

    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Location:
    Mount Juliet, TN
    It is unfortunate that your event was that discouraging. One thing that the Appleseeders often fail to see is that the folks that don't come back Sunday are not necessarily going to church... they have had this sort of experience. It is human to not want to talk about it anymore, and that is why you rarely see this sort of write-up.

    However, a conscientious instructor does not need to see the write up to fully see the problem. I must clarify, I am not an instructor in the firearm, but I have taught (often on a volunteer basis) martial arts for 25 years.

    It is in response to the folks I saw at the Appleseed getting really discouraged in a way that ROGER4314 details here, that I decided to do some research, consult with certified educators, and come up with a short list of suggestions for potential Appleseeders in an effort to maximize their enjoyment of the program and to greatly enhance how much they will learn.

    I blogged about it back in November.

    Here are my suggestions for any potential Appleseeder. Deviate from these at your own expense!
    1. Make sure the attendee has been out shooting before.
    Different people acclimate at different speeds, but I would say a good rule of thumb might be 3-5 times shooting. It is imperative that the prospective Appleseeder go shooting with the exact rifle (or exact carbon-copy) they will use for the event itself - at least 3 times. They will need to be familiar with shooting, and they will have to be familiar with the rifle they will use... which brings me to my second suggestion:

    2. Make sure the attendee is familiar with the rifle he/she will be using.
    Know how to work the rifle. Know how to clear jams, do mag changes, etc. Appleseed instruction is geared around basic marksmanship and sport shooting with a sling (I say this because no major military unit still uses sling instruction these days). Appleseeds are not tactical training. You might get some helpful hints if you bring a 10/22 (that is the most common rifle brought), and perhaps with an AR15 (though my experience negates that, others have reported some helpful hints).

    3. Bring a semi-automatic rifle. Preferably a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795.
    Also bring 5 magazines. Sight in the rifle with the exact same ammo you intend to use. Some Appleseed 'instructors' will say that there have seen students shoot "Rifleman" (the project's highest recognition) with a bolt gun or lever gun. Those rare instances have been very experienced shooters - most of whom shot rifleman first with a semi-auto, then came back with a bolt gun just for the challenge of it.