Quick question for you .45 shooters

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by JNKIRK1974, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. JNKIRK1974

    JNKIRK1974

    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Location:
    Rockwall, Texas
    For your carry guns, does it really matter if you use hollow points or just FMJs? I'm talking specifically about .45s.

    Just curious.

    In a 9mm and even a .40, I completely understand. However, I'm just wondering if the .45 round is just fine as a FMJ.

    Thanks!
     
  2. 82ndVet

    82ndVet

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Location:
    Canton, GA
    If that's all I had access to, then I'd still be ok with it.

    :patriot:
     

  3. hamburger

    hamburger

    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    For defensive purpose, shouldn't they always be hollow points? I'm no gun guru, but I was told that all FMJ have to potential to exit a person and hit something/someone else that's behind the intended target.
     
  4. mclaren

    mclaren

    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    As long as the hollow point feeds reliably and is proven to penetrate and expand there is no reason to use FMJ.
    Your carry ammo should always feed reliably in your gun. It is possible (though unlikely) that a gun may not reliably feed FMJ and functions better with a specific hollow point. That is #1 important. If you cant put holes in them nothing else matters.
    If both feed well the only time a FMJ would be superior would be in penetration. So much so that you risk overpenetration. So you are weighing the risk of collateral damage with a FMJ against the risk of not reaching vitals with a hollow point. There is no way to limit the penetration of a FMJ other than lowering the velocity. There are to many variables in the possible media the bullet will pass through for that adjustment in velocity to be practically applicable.
    Expansion, for the sake of comparison, will function to limit penetration, thus the chance of collateral damage.
    So you must be sure that your hollow point of choice will penetrate far enough to reach vitals in the event that it expands perfectly. If it doesn't you essentially have an FMJ again, so thats not really a con for hollow points, you just revert to the alternative.
    So the only 2 times I would carry an FMJ by choice would be if its the only thing my gun will feed, or if I have zero faith in the penetrating capabilities of any available hollow point.
    I carry hollow points
    Corbon Pow'rBall splits the difference just for the record
     
  5. chasbo00

    chasbo00

    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    As a former Army Aviator, I never liked having to carry my issued .38 Special revolver with FMJ ammo. I replaced it with my personal .45 1911. I had no issue with .45 FMJ then and I don't today. The .45 FMJ bullet has been getting the job done for a very long time. Personally, I think much of the expressed concern with over penetration is way overblown. I'd be much more concerned with misses than over penetration.

    However, I do prefer a good .45 hollow point over a FMJ for a defensive cartridge as I think it's just a better choice for most defensive scenarios, but I would not feel deprived if .45 FMJ rounds were all I had.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  6. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,072
    Likes Received:
    5,359
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    If I had to carry FMJ, I would want a 45acp. The only thing FMJ really offers you over JHP in 45acp is 100% reliability. I always choose a good JHP & in 45acp, that is just about anything the majors are producing from 185gr-230gr IMO. For best of both worlds, someone need to make a 200gr FMJFP w/ a very shallow cup to the meplate. This would track straight in penetration & the cup would not expand but does cause more tissue damage. Would probably be legal in non HP states as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  7. JNKIRK1974

    JNKIRK1974

    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Location:
    Rockwall, Texas
    I guess my main question was (aside from over-penetration issues), is the .45 FMJ a solid, reliable defense option.

    I have plenty of hollow points. I'm just curious.

    Is a .45 FMJ better than a 9mm hollow point?
     
  8. chasbo00

    chasbo00

    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    Assuming the round count is the same just to keep the question focused on the bullet... For example let's say your choice is an 8 + 1 round capacity 9mm SIG P239 with your choice of hollow point cartridges vs. a similar sized top-notch 1911 with an 8 +1 round capacity with only FMJ 230 grain cartridges. I would say it's a pretty close call, but I would go with .45 cal.

    If the 9mm round count was much higher than the .45, it would be my pick.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  9. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,072
    Likes Received:
    5,359
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    I agree. If I only had ball ammo, then 45, if I had to choose between 45 ball & a good 9mm+P JHP, I would go 9mm.
     
  10. JNKIRK1974

    JNKIRK1974

    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Location:
    Rockwall, Texas
    That pretty much answers my question.
     
  11. mclaren

    mclaren

    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    I say look at what the pro's use. The only reason the military uses/used FMJ is because they are forced to by external forces, not because its the best choice. Im no history pro but it was the Hague Convention right? All of the police and other various forces that use hollow points do so because of the merits of the bullet, not because they want to wound rather than kill.
    The vast majority of professionals that have the choice choose hollow points. Those that use FMJ do so because they have to (civilians withstanding).

    Isnt the theory that on the battle field if you wound someone with a clean hole, you take 2-3 people out of the fight because someone has to drag the soldier to safety and stabilize him? Its like a civilized fight strategy thing.

    I had a conversation with a much younger friend that is new into the gun thing. he has a 1911 and wants a combat type rifle. I was pointing out the greatness of the AK. He is hung up on the AR-15 because its what america uses, therefore it must be superior in every way. The AR has plenty of advantages over an AK, thats not the point, its that he thought that because the US military uses 5.56 FMJ (and other variants) that it must be the greatest, baddest, most powerfull thing ever.
    There is much more context to the conversation but basically im just pointing out that he has almost a military fetish. he totally disregards all of the limitations set on the equipment used and thinks it has to be the best because the Army uses it.

    I think this is part of the reason people are hung up on the .45 FMJ. I realize that was the original design, how long ago was that? Were there computers and airplanes back then? I realize it has killed alot of people, so have 5 gallon buckets with 2" of water in the bottom. I think part of it is nostalgia. Nostalgia is fine as long as things are kept in a nostalgic context. You can afford overpenetration in a war zone, its a little more risky at Wal-Mart.

    I really think that there will hardly be a dime's worth of difference between a .355 hole through and through and a .45 (isnt it really .452, don't remember). That is about .050 on each side. Fifty Thousandths of an inch, through elastic tissue. If shot placement is good it will not matter.
    In that case penetration wins the day, since there is no expansion. So wouldn't a higher sectional density be superior. Linear inches of penetration will make or break incapacitation much more than .100" wound cavity diameter. Wouldn't a 9 mm penetrate better in FMJ than a .45?
    So when the .45 FMJ fans tout mega penetration, doesn't the 9 mm FMJ really win?

    The Meplat idea is a good one though, thats where thousandths can make a difference. That totally changes the dynamics of the discussion

    These are just strong opinions, not attacks. A hole in the BG is better than none at all and thats what counts at the end of the day.
     
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    27,072
    Likes Received:
    5,359
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    While there is not a lot of diff. in 9m FMJ & 45 FMJ, there is a diff. FMJ hits w/o striking bone are basicaly puncture wounds. So I want the largest puncture wound I can get for faster bleeding. If it's all of 0.096" larger, then I want that. Either will penetrate far enough to hit vitals. Look at it as a 27% larger hole, sounds a bit better huh? SO two hits w/ a 9mm or two hits w/ a 45acp, which give creates the larger wound, if only marginally larger? Yeah I thought so.:supergrin:
     
  13. N/Apower

    N/Apower

    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    An FMJ with a round-nose will only create a permanent wound-cavity roughly 66% as large as the projectile. A JHP will create a permanent cavity between 80-90% as large as the expanded projectile.

    I would like to create a hole 80% of 0.8" more than I would like to create a hold 66% of 0.451".

    Just my .02
     
  14. RedsoxFan4Lyfe

    RedsoxFan4Lyfe

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
    Location:
    Florida USA
    Im fine with either .45 FMJ or HP ammo. Im also fine with 9mm FMJ or HP ammo.

    They are both handgun rounds and they are only going to do so much. I recognize that HP ammo is superior, I am just saying that FMJ will ruin your day just as well.

    You put a hole in the human body in a vital spot and they are going to have an extremely bad day.

    I kept a Beretta 92 loaded with 9mm FMJ ammo for over a year. It was my only gun and my only ammo. We were so poor we had to get food from relatives and the local food banks back then. I didnt have $30+ for ammo at that time. I never lost sleep over it once.
     
  15. dosei

    dosei

    Messages:
    3,171
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    IMHO, 45acp FMJ's only bring disadvantages to the table when compared to expanding rounds/HP's for defencive use against human assailants.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  16. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Messages:
    5,718
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002


    That is all I carry in the 45acp 230gr FMJ.

    The choice is yours though as you know.


    Good luck



    CanyonMan
     
  17. J. Parker

    J. Parker

    Messages:
    2,778
    Likes Received:
    35
    Joined:
    May 24, 2000
    Location:
    Ephrata, Wa.
    FMJ for me too. I live in the boonies and my housegun is a G21 and tac-light with 230gr FMJ fodder. My carry piece is a USP40 fullsize with 165gr TMJ fodder.
     
  18. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

    Messages:
    5,718
    Likes Received:
    30
    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002

    ;)



    Stay safe out there amigo !




    CM
     
  19. 82ndVet

    82ndVet

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Location:
    Canton, GA
    I'm pretty sure a direct hit to the sternum with a 45 ball will knock any man down, no matter how big they are.
     
  20. N/Apower

    N/Apower

    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Negative. Keep shooting until the threat is down. People have absorbed entire magazines of ammunition and kept on coming. Here is one example:
    http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0506/a_warrior_sacrifice.html

    PS. As you may have guessed, it was the headshot that killed him. All this talk of a .45 knocking a man down is a joke and it's going to get the wrong person killed if you're not careful. I have failure stories from the .40, .45 FMJ, etc. etc. etc. That was just the one I could dig up the fastest that is well documented. If a person has a warrior mindset, or is flat-out pissed off or crazy, you're going to have to disrupt the CNS or drain them of 20% of their blood volume. There doesn't seem to be any other way according to history.