Questions on not decocking or disengaging/ engaging a manual safety?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by cfr, Feb 8, 2017.

  1. cfr

    cfr

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    Greetings. In the 6 or so years that I've been shooting, it's been exclusively striker fired pistols, but I've been really considering getting a CZ P-07. What I really like about it is at this point I'm unsure if I'd want it to be DA/ SA or just SAO, and this gives me both options.

    Anyways, I was actually set to buy one last night, when my wife, who is just getting in to shooting, asked me "are you sure you're going to like the extra stuff on it?" -- referring to the decocker or safety on this pistol. She also expressed that she has NO desire for me to purchase it. In the couple times shes been shooting it was my PPQ and a Glock 19 she got from the range, and she's not wanting our small stash to venture out of the striker fired realm. The fact that she's going shooting for a third time a few days from now, and is really excited about it, is huge in my house. I could go buy a G19 right now, and she'd welcome it. Not so much with this (though she would accept it).

    All this got me thinking, "would I like this?". Obviously there's some retraining that would need to be done. How big of a deal is this? Lots of folks carry and/ or compete with SAO, and some with DA/ SA as well.

    All said, is it at all common to see people either:

    1. Not disengage the safety on SAO pistols during competition/ self defense/ classes (pulling the pistol out of the holster)?
    2. Not reengage the safety or deckock a pistol during competition/ self defense/ classes (putting the pistol back in the holster)?
    Obviously these two scenarios are different with these types of pistols than they are with striker fired pistols. Also, I realize it's all about training -- these types of pistols are not unsafe. However, I also believe that people brain fart during stress.

    Thanks!
     
  2. MajorD

    MajorD

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    Considering if you take a proper grip on almost all single action pistols with a safety ( the 1911 being the classic example) your thumb ends up on top of the safety on the draw the natural progression of tightening the grip on the pistol almost automatically results in the safety being pushed off, failing to disengage a safety is sort of hard to do. Awareness of your platform will have you placing the pistol
    Deliberately on safe before reholstering. Under stress could you forget either one? Of course but I have not seen it. Shooting both glocks and 1911's interchangeably for decades I have personally never forgot.
    Keep in mind with a single action pistol after you take the safety off your thumb stays right there and is not moved off the safety until
    You have finished shooting
     

  3. Benton

    Benton

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    cfr,
    You may want to wait and check out the CZ P-10C.
    It is striker fired and will have a 4-4.5# trigger after a break in period. Go on YouTube and check out the reviews.
    They should be available sometime in March if not sooner. Suggested retail around: $500.00.
    Some of the CZ's give you a choice of switching from safety to decocker with their traditional double action pistols.
    CZ also has their own custom shop.
    I will either get the CZ P-10C or one of their CZ 75 variants with the decocker version.
    Whatever your choice, good luck to you.
     
  4. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    When your wife said, "are you sure you're going to like the extra stuff on it?" -- referring to the decocker or safety on the pistol, I think she showed very good judgment. because that's exactly how I feel about DA/SA's with decockers and I've been shooting handguns since about 1976. I started out with revolvers and then moved to a 1911 or what you might call an SAO.

    I had done a lot of training and competition with revolvers (Bowling pin competitions) and I did a lot of training with a 1911 and carried one, cocked and locked. Because of my training, it became instinctive to not swipe OFF the safety until my sights were on target, and to automatically put the safety ON when holstering the gun.

    When I say training, what I mean is that It takes 3,000 to 5000 repetitions to embed a specific movement into your body's muscle memory so I practiced drawing my gun, presenting it and moving it on to the target and only then swiping the safety off, firing the gun, putting the safety back on and then re-holstering and I did this very SLOWLY and carefully at first until it became instinctive and then speeded it up carefully a little at a time, but moving more slowly when re-holstering. And I did have some very good formal training and then practiced what I learned on my own.

    So at some point when you're ready to get a 1911 style gun and carry it cocked and locked, this is the kind of training that you need to commit to. But similarly, you need to commit to a similar yet slightly different sort of training with a striker fired pistol like the model 19 that your wife likes, and that is that you have to train to NEVER put your finger in the trigger guard until your sights are on target, the same way you never swipe the safety off an put you finger in the trigger guard of the 1911 single action style gun.

    You need to get the Glock 19 got you and your wife BOTH to train with and to use. Then, the glock will become "hers" and you can get another gun for "his". And at that point, you might even like the Glock so much that you'll get one for yourself.
     
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  5. RonS

    RonS Millennium Member

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    If you use a ball point pen on a regular basis, how often do you try to start writing before you click it to extend the ink cartridge?
     
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  6. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    All said, is it at all common to see people either:

    1. Not disengage the safety on SAO pistols during competition/ self defense/ classes (pulling the pistol out of the holster)?
    2. Not reengage the safety or deckock a pistol during competition/ self defense/ classes (putting the pistol back in the holster)?


    Not allowed in competition; not allowed in my classes, silly not to in SD

    wp
     
  7. cfr

    cfr

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    I meant these things happening by mistake.
     
  8. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    Sorry, my bad.

    Practice until it becomes second nature and you can't make a mistake.

    I have been around three competitors who have shot themselves by knockout the safety off before they were ready. Serpa, glove, reholstering w/o safety.

    wp
     
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  9. bustedknee

    bustedknee The Snowflakes have invaded GT

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    Wife = smart

    Man = not so much



    Mama not happy-nobody happy




    I cant say it any simpler.


    Many years ago, PC, (pre-Glock), when the S&W 59 was new i purchased one. Great pistol, light, hi-cap and DA!
    But it had a manual safety which I thought should have been left off.

    Then along came Glock...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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  10. cfr

    cfr

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    LOL, good point.
     
  11. ronin.45

    ronin.45

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    I am in a similar situation. I really like the P-09, but not DA/SA or SAO. I'd prefer they offered a nice smooth DAO version.
     
  12. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    I have seen both happen, many times. Most commonly with new shooters who have not practiced drawing with live fire.

    The first time I did a force on force drill with a 1911, #1 happened to me. I had been shooting a 1911 almost exclusively for about a year, however I was caught up in playing the role of "bad guy". Yes, my grip "should" deactivate the safety, but Murphy is a...well, you know. Also consider that you may not get a perfect grip in an entangled encounter, so the safety manipulation *needs* to be conscious. I'm not saying this to poo-poo manual safeties, its just something one must consider.

    While I think CZs are great pistols, having BOTH a safety and a decocker on the same pistols is one of the dumbest things ever designed, second only to putting said safety and decocker on the slide. Find out which one you want before deciding on a pistol.
     
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  13. cfr

    cfr

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    It's not the same at the same time. It includes conversion parts to switch from DA/ SA to SAO.
     
  14. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    In that case, go for it. The only one I have seen come through a class appeared to have both (somewhat like a USP).
     
  15. BuckyP

    BuckyP Lifetime Member

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    Holstering a gun in a manner considered unsafe, like an SAO without the safety on, or DA/SA with the hammer cocker (no safety) is a DQ'able offense, meaning you are done shooting for the day. I've seen it happen a few times, but typically with new shooters. Proper training and familiarity is the key to preventing a mistake.

    In my 24+ years of shooting USPSA and other types of competition, I've only been on the range twice when someone accidentally shot themselves. First time was Glock, second was an XD, no safeties or decockers on either of these.
     
  16. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    Well, I've got a few years on you. :supergrin:

    wp
     
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  17. BuckyP

    BuckyP Lifetime Member

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    Well I'm old, what's that make you. :fred:

    :tongueout:
     
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  18. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    Well , let's just say I fired up my first competitive gun in 1968. I won't say how old I was. :fred::fred::fred:

    wp
     
  19. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    Yes.

    Also add to that AD's during de-cock.

    Why? Can you train to be better? Is the design good or bad? Those are interesting questions that can be debated forever.

    What I think is funny is to watch someone step up to the line in a competition and draw, try to shoot and nothing goes bang. Then they tilt the gun sideways a bit looking at it, and then put the safety on fire, and are back in business :)

    I'm not saying that will happen to you. I'm not saying it happens to any of the elite shooters on GT. I'm not saying it happens at the top competitions in the country. I'm just saying it happens :)
     
  20. cfr

    cfr

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    What about forgetting to take the safety off to shoot?