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Question that will make your brain itch and/or hurt....Long post

Discussion in 'Firefighter/EMS Talk' started by DTD2, May 27, 2005.

  1. DTD2

    DTD2 vote or die

    Likes Received:
    Mar 11, 2005
    S.E. Wisconsin
    First of all I am not a Police Officer nor do I aspire to be one. I respect you guy's (and Gal's) and the dangerous job you do.

    My profession is fire inspector/investigator. I live in Wisconsin where they do not honor my 2nd amendment right (no CCW).

    Today I got a disturbing phone call from a billing/collection agency. They were verifying me as a reference. It seems someone has my confidential personal information (first and last name, address, phone number).This person, to my knowledge, has not identified themselves as me, YET.

    I obtained the persons name and ran it through the Wisconsin Circuit Court Access website.

    I called the billing collection agency back and verified the name, DOB and last known residence of this person. All the information was confirmed.

    This person has a history of aggravated strong arm robbery, accessory to robbery, theft, felony firearms possession, possession of marijuana, possession of paraphernalia, theft by false representation.

    Obviously I do not know this person nor do I wish an encounter with him. He knows who I am, where I live and who knows what else.

    I carry when at home but am prohibited by law (or so I thought/think) from concealed carry while “out”.

    This got me thinking.


    Can I Carry Concealed as a Fire Inspector/Investigator???

    Wisconsin CCW law.

    941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except a Peace Officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    Local Ordinance.

    Sec. 50-4. Firearms.
    No person, except a law enforcement officer or person authorized by the law to do so, shall within the city in any vehicle possess, carry, place with him or have under his control any firearm or air gun, unless such firearm or airgun is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

    Definition of Peace Officer.

    Wis SS 939.22(22)
    (22) "Peace Officer " means any person vested by law with a duty to maintain public order or to make arrests for crime, whether that duty extends to all crimes or is limited to specific crimes.

    Definition of Law Enforcement Officer.

    Wis SS 51.01(11)
    "Law enforcement officer" means any person who by virtue of the person's office or public employment is vested by law with the duty to maintain public order or to make arrests for crimes while acting within the scope of the person's authority.

    Definition of Crime.

    “Conduct, which is prohibited by state law and punishable by fine or imprisonment or both”

    Definition of Law Enforcement.

    Wis SS 164.01 Definition. In this chapter, except in s. 164.06, "law enforcement officer" means any person employed by the state or by a city, village, town or county for the purpose of detecting and preventing crime and enforcing laws or ordinances, who is authorized to make arrests for violations of the laws or ordinances which he or she is employed to enforce.

    (Wis SS 164.06 speaks of Officers running for public office)

    My Statutory duties as a Fire Inspector.

    Wis SS 101.14(2)(b)
    (b) The chief of every fire department shall provide for the inspection of every public building and place of employment to determine and cause to be eliminated any fire hazard or any violation of any law relating to fire hazards or to the prevention of fires.

    Wis SS 101.14(2)(d)
    The chief of every fire department, or, in 1st class cities, the building inspector appointed by the department under par. (a), shall designate a sufficient number of inspectors to make the inspections required under pars. (b) and (c).

    Wis SS 947.06(1)
    (1) Sheriffs, their undersheriffs and deputies, constables, marshals and police officers have a duty to suppress unlawful assemblies within their jurisdiction. For that reason they may order all persons who are part of an assembly to disperse. An "unlawful assembly" is an assembly which consists of 3 or more persons and which causes such a disturbance of public order that it is reasonable to believe that the assembly will cause injury to persons or damage to property unless it is immediately dispersed.

    My Cities Ordinance regarding enforcement of ordinances.

    Sec. 1-13. Citation. (This is long just read the BOLD type)
    Violations of nontraffic ordinances of the city shall be enforced by the issuance of a municipal citation.
    (1) Information required. The municipal citation shall contain the following information:
    a. The name and address of the alleged violator.
    b. Factual allegations describing the alleged violations.
    c. The time and place of the offense.
    d. The section of the Code violated.
    e. A designation of the offense in such manner as can readily be understood by a person making a reasonable effort to do so.
    f. The time at which the alleged violator may appear in court.
    g. A statement which in essence informs the alleged violator that:
    1. A cash deposit based on the schedule established by the city council as a part of this section may be made which shall be delivered or mailed to the police department at the city hall prior to the time of the scheduled court appearance.
    2. If a deposit is made, no appearance in court is necessary unless he is subsequently summoned.
    3. If a cash deposit is made and the alleged violator does not appear in court, he will be deemed to have entered a plea of no contest, or, if the court does not accept the plea of no contest, a summons will be issued commanding him to appear in court to answer the complaint.
    4. If no cash deposit is made and the alleged violator does not appear in court at the time specified in the citation, the court may issue a summons or warrant for the defendant's arrest or consider the nonappearance to be a plea of no contest and enter judgment accordingly if service was effected pursuant to W.S.A., § 66.119(3)(e) or commence an action for collection of the forfeiture, penalty assessment and jail assessment and any applicable domestic abuse assessment.

    State law references: Similar provisions, W.S.A., § 66.119(3)(d).

    h. A direction that if the alleged violator elects to make a cash deposit, the statement which accompanies the citation shall be signed to indicate that the statement required under subsection (1)g of this section has been read. Such statement shall be sent or brought with the cash deposit.
    i. Such other information as the city deems necessary.
    (2) Schedule of deposits. The schedule of cash deposits for use with citations issued under this section shall be as adopted by the city council from time to time, and such schedule shall be on file in the office of the chief of police and in the office of the clerk.
    (3) Form of deposits. Deposits shall be in cash, money order or certified check to the Lake Geneva Police Department, an officer of which shall provide a receipt therefor.
    (4) Issuance of citation. Any law enforcement officer may issue citations authorized under this section. The following city officials and their designated agents, after clearance with the city attorney, may issue citations with respect to those specified sections which are directly related to their official responsibilities: the building inspector, assistant building inspector, fire chief, fire inspector, city clerk and city treasurer.
    (5) Procedure. W.S.A., § 66.119(3), relating to the violator's options and procedure on default, is adopted and incorporated in this section by reference.
    (6) Nonexclusivity. This section does not preclude the council from adopting any other ordinance or providing for the enforcement of any law or ordinance relating to the same or other matter. The issuance of a citation under this section shall not preclude the city or any authorized officer from proceeding under any other ordinance or law or by any other enforcement method to enforce any ordinance, regulation or order.
    (Code 1992, § 25.04(4); Ord. No. 04-34, § I, 8-23-04)

    I have spoke with the Attorney General Office and they state that statutorily I can carry concealed but it is my burden to provide proof of my “Powers”.
    They cited case law….
    941.23 - ANNOT.
    The burden is on the defendant to prove that he is a peace officer so as to come within the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).

    They advised it would be wise to obtain written permission from the City Attorney, Police and Fire Chief’s.

    With the recent development of a known criminal having sensitive information, regarding myself (which has instilled a reasonable amount of fear), and the slight chance of a “disturbed business owner” “retaliating” against the inspection or citation I just wrote them. How would you proceed with obtaining authorization from the City Attorney and Chief’s to conceal carry?

    Once again I DO NOT WANT TO BE A POLICE OFFICER. I prefer to drag hose!

    Opinions welcome.

    All I want to do is ensure the safety of myself and my family.

    I will also post this in the Firefighter/EMS Forum.

    Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading and/or replying.
  2. Dandapani


    Likes Received:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Gulf side Florida
    Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6?

  3. cjfive


    Likes Received:
    Jun 1, 2003
    Kokomo, IN
    I know my local FD's Fire inspector is a sworn LEO. Unless you have been through firearms instruction through your dept and have been given statutory arrest powers I would almost gaurantee you that you do not have a legal(read as official) right/duty to carry a firearm. As an inspector are you allowed(note not legaly but by policy) to arrest someone for a violation of the law? If so then you may qualify as a LEO but also note that many Departments have rules/policies concerning carrying or possesing a deadly weapon. Do you do call outs in your POV? Do you have a take home vehicle? If so you would more than likly be violating your Departments Policy on firearms. My to your chief or your immediate supervisor. Find out what statutory powers you have and whether your deartment considers you a LEO. If your department doesn't consider you a LEO or discribe your job as a Law Enforcement job then you probably aren't.

    Please note am not a LEO, just a C.O.(in Indiana we are a step up from the inmates themselves, and at times it seems a very small step) just my $0.02
  4. Tvov


    Likes Received:
    Sep 30, 2000
    Can't you get some sort of "special" carry permit if the situation calls for it? You think it does, have you talked to your local LEOs?