Problems with 9mm loads in my P226

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by mapwd1702, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. mapwd1702

    mapwd1702

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    I have loaded a 147 Grn LFP bullet on top of 4.2 Grns of Titegroup powder (max according to Hogdons is 4.4). I have a OAL at 1.17. I am getting terrible Keyholing. Is my round to long?? To much powder? The only entry I can find on the Hogdon's data site for a 147 grn 9mm is for a FMJ or XTP bullet. Is there a difference between Lead and Plated when it comes to reloading data, or can I just use the weight of 147????
    I am going to try switching to Universal Clays, anyone load using this powder? any good load recipes for a 147 with it???
    This P226 is 26 years old and the barrel has some pitting in it, but still looks good so I don't think I am having issues due to that.

    Update....

    I was using a recipe out of the Hogdon's reloading magazine. It gave a 9mm 147 grn bullet min. charge of 3.9 and a max. of 4.4. I got huge Keyholing with this round. I look up Hogdon website and use their data page there and it gives a max. charge of 3.2 grns and a max. of 3.6!!!!! My load of 4.2 grns was way over max. according to the website, could this cause my Keyholing????
    __________________
     
  2. 1006

    1006

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    sounds familar--

    I have had 3 Sigs -- none will shoot lead without keyholing.

    I can shoot maybe 50 rounds before the barrel leads up and keyholing begins.
     

  3. chris in va

    chris in va

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    Same issue with my CZ...massive keyholing even with a clean barrel. Mine quit doing that when I slowed down the bullet speed toward minimum levels. Still not terribly accurate, nowhere near FMJ.

    Someone informed me the Lee 38 Special 125gr mold is a lot more accurate so I'll probably try that one out.
     
  4. Boxerglocker

    Boxerglocker Jacks #1 Fan

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    I would back off the powder a little and work up slowly 5-10 rounds at a time from 3.4g and up... also check your crimp, might be too much. I load a 147 FMJ with TG at 3.6 for my G34 and G17...good load.
    I'll bet it's a combo of both too hot and your crimp it too tight.... that 4.2 is a little hot for a 147 IMO. 147g weight bullets are normally used for subsonic loads. Another thought is Tg is a very fast very hot powder not really suitable for lead IMO.
     
  5. mapwd1702

    mapwd1702

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    I thought it was too hot myself, but I figured the data from Hogdon's was good, but their website is quite different! I almost blew up my gun because of their annual loading magazine. I am going to go pull some bullets! I think my crimp is good, I just crimp till they cant be pushed back in with me pushing on them, might have gone too far though.
     
  6. Boxerglocker

    Boxerglocker Jacks #1 Fan

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    NO! MEASURE your crimps, the push thing is completely unscientific, unreliable and just plain extremely inaccurate.

    Crimp to the following: Bullet diameter plus two times the brass case wall thickness (.355 + 0.012 X 2 = 0.379) subtract .002 to give a marginal 0.377 crimp that number will account for slightly thinner brass if you used mixed lots.
     
  7. mapwd1702

    mapwd1702

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    my crimp measures in at exactly 0.377. Time to lighten the load and loosen the crimp a tad.
     
  8. 1006

    1006

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    I have the used the same loads, that keyhole in my Sig, in a G-17L StormLake barrel and in a G-19 Lone Wolf Barrel without keyholing.

    My Sig will shoot powder puff loads without keyholing as quickly, but what good are they? -- the sights aren't adjustable. The Sigs seem to have some kind of rifleing that does not like lead.
     
  9. hoffy

    hoffy

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    As someone stated the 147 was initially a subsonic load, with a much heavier bullet than the cartridge was intended for to make up for a lack of stopping power when many LEOs switched from 38s.(the 9mm over penetrated especially with FMJ and early HPs) I worked at a gun shop at this time, and hornady had the first 147 gr jacketed bullet for reloading, and I had to call Sierra for load data, Hornady couldn't help me.

    Keyholing has been a problem for me twice, once I was using a mid range load in a 45 with a store bought cast swc and the bullet was very hard, too hard IMO, it wasn't obturating and skidded down the barrel. The second time was a mystery to me. I had worked up a very accurate load for plated bullets in a HK USP compact 40, and when I shot the same load in a G-35 I later bought I got keyholing. The powder was tite group, which I use extensively for light to near factory loads, jacketed, plated and cast.

    I have had 6 SIGS, 3 right now, and all have shot cast fine, from midrange loads to fairly hot loads for 50 +yard work. My 220 has has had thousands of cast loads using wheel weights with out cleaning and worked ok, no leading, using RCBS and Lyman lube. As I said above I think that some commercial casters over do it with hardness, especially with pistol bullets. I have had some that were harder than 30 caliber rifle bullets I cast using wheel weights and linotype. SIGs have traditional rifling, it is HKs and Glocks that have polygonal rifling that usually does not work with lead.

    Usually for cast and jacketed bullets of the same weight the cast loads should be lighter,plated too. I looked up tite group in the closest manual I had at hand and found 3.2 min-3.6 max for a 147 jacketed, and 2.5min-2.8 max for cast 147. Also if the barrel is pitted that will not help shooting lead, that gun was either extremely neglected or shot with corrosive and not cleaned properly. I have not seen corrosive 9mm for some time in the U.S. Last I saw was some hot Egyptian stuff and some old Lapua , like from the 40s-50s which I treated as corrosive and cleaned accordingly. (This stuff was imported in the '80s-late '90s)

    As for hot handlods, I don't do it. used to when I was young, had a super blackhawk I thought the loads weren't hot enough unless I had to tighten the screws every 100 rounds, stupid, hard on the gun and brass. I quickly gave that up and most loads for pistols will be around 75-80% of max or less, unless using H-110 or 296, which should not be used with reduced loads. I have brass from the '80s for 44 mag that I am just now throwing out due to neck splits, they got 3-4 warmish jacketed loads, then the rest were 8.5 gr Unique over a 245 Lyman cast, a warmish midrange load, that hits accurately out to 100 yards + and has taken several deer.They have about 10-12 loads or more. Rifle loads can be more tricky , many shoot best at near max loads, not always , but brass life can be even more greatly reduced if you rev them up.( I have annealed necks of scarce brass, but always check for head separation if they have been fired that many times) I have been at this 30 + years, and most loads are for plinking, but I do neck turn and ream and uniform flash holes for certain rifles I enjoy tack driving with, but have some old military SAKOs that make that seem superfluous they shoot so good, with .308 bullets no less.1 1/2 inch 3 shot group at 100 yards off bags, iron sights.

    If the Sig barrel is too badly pitted, if you want to keep it EFK and others have them for about 150$, SIG would too but it would be more. Since the gun is that old, it might not be a bad idea to have a gunsmith check the lockup on it if you get a new barrel.Or scrutinize it closely your self, check barrel slide fit and make sure the frame cams the barrel up properly. Have seen 1911s kaboom due to dropping in barrels that should have been fitted when I worked at the shop years ago. The reason I worry is if the gun is that old it may have had many rounds through it and the current barrel and frame have worn in together.
     
  10. mapwd1702

    mapwd1702

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    ok, i am going senile!!! page in my data got turned, I was loading for a 147 grn bullet in 38 super!!!! manual and website match!!!!
     
  11. jeffchance

    jeffchance

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    Good Grief, Charlie Brown!:wow:
    JEFF
     
  12. Goodspeed(TPF)

    Goodspeed(TPF)

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    Wowzers Batman. :wow:
     
  13. mapwd1702

    mapwd1702

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    I got very lucky and I didn't blow up my gun or injure myself. This just goes to show, NEVER get complacent when reloading. Double check everything before you start and don't get distracted.
     
  14. SinCityGlocker

    SinCityGlocker

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    Lucky dog, OP! Also: Keyholing?
     
  15. 1glock

    1glock

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    I keep 147gr cast bullets at about 850 fps level and they work really well.
    It has enough power to cycle the slide every time and give good accuracy.