Posted: No firearms allowed inside this establishment

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by hogship, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    How many of you actually search around for one of these signs?

    I don't spend any effort looking for one, but if they want to put the notice in big letters across the front of their entrance door, I would be obligated to comply with their wishes......and unless there were absolutely no other choices, compliance would be by not patronizing their business.

    Complying with a request by the owner of the property, and what is LAW are two different things entirely, and is something else to consider.....

    If you are from another state, what is the legal ramifications of carrying ccw in an establishment that has a posted sign? Are you legally putting yourself in jeopardy? Assuming that would be the case, what if you do not notice the sign, or ignore it....any difference in how the law is applied?

    hog
     
  2. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Hey Hog, I've been in the same boat. #1 IMO this is like telling the bad guys "Come on in, no one in here will stop you". #2 I just don't go there, in western KY there are very few places that post signs like that, so I just don't give them my money.
    As an instructor I work a lot with the KSP and one of the Troopers and I are pretty good friends and we discussed this problem. This is what he told me; if your caught, the police will be called. It doesn't matter if you didn't see the sign (as long as it displayed where it can be easily seen) or not (ignorance of the law, or some crap like that). But when the officer arrives it is COMPLETELY up to him/her. He told me once the officer has you outside he/she could let you go (as long as you were carrying legally) or take you to get processed. Now, if the owner pushed the issue it would be different, the officer has a job to do. He told me that in my position (instructor for the state) that he would say that I would probably be let go with a warning, but I have chosen to not put the officer in that position. I live in a small town on a farm. The place I am refering to is a shopping mall about 30 minutes away that has a movie theatre in it. I just go to another movie theatre and mall. It takes a little longer to get there but it is worth my piece of mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010

  3. spork

    spork Caffeinator

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    I don't make a point of looking for the signs, but to the extent that I have looked for them, I rarely find one. The exceptions are usually large, chain businesses (such as banks and movie theaters).

    Even if I see such a sign, I ignore it. My state does not criminalize carrying on posted-private property, unless the licensee has been asked to leave and refused.
     
  4. tx787

    tx787

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    Fortunately TX law is very well written in this regard and there's a very specific formula that must be followed for no guns signs to be legal, so far I've never seen one that was correctly posted and therefore have never had to disarm (for that reason) I've had to plenty of times for bars, the post office, college campus however.

    Only thing I'd like to see changed would be to require businesses that correctly ban legal civilian carry to have automatic civil liability if any shootings occur on their property.
     
  5. uhlawpup

    uhlawpup l'Italia s'è desta

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    Wow, 787, you mustn't come to Houston much. I've seen several signs that met the requirement. I've also been put on notice in the other ways that our law allows. (A sign is not required in Texas. You can be informed in several other ways, all of which are just as binding.

    When it comes to whether or not the sign or other warning was in total compliance, the court may have to decide if a reasonable person would have been on notice that concealed weapons were not allowed. Keep that in mind.

    Other Texas laws are the same way. The .08 blood alcohol content is only one measure of driving while under the influence.

    Picking nits over something this serious, when the consequences are as severe as they are in Texas, is just not worth it.
     
  6. dave27

    dave27 Millennium Member

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    No legal ramifications in NYS, the signs don't mean anything as far as legal CCW goes. If a store has a "no gun" policy and posts a sign it's just that, a store policy.

    I suppose they could get you for trespassing if you are asked to leave and keep going back but not sure why anyone would do that!

    Of course, in NYS concealed is the ONLY way to legally carry so how would they ever find it to begin with?
     
  7. ju993rnaut

    ju993rnaut

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    I went to a restaraunt that a friend of mine manages yesterday and saw no sign onthe outside of the building. Upon entering there was a 30.06 sign posted at about thigh level, I went back to the truck and secured my weapon inside the vehicle. Yeah I look for these signs, Id rather not deal with the legal consequences. Was this sign correctly posted? I thought it had to be posted at more of an eye level...
     
  8. Brian Lee

    Brian Lee Drop those nuts

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    I've been boycotting one of my old regular eating places in Ahwatukee AZ ever since they put up a "No Guns" sign right after we legalized carrying into restaurants that serve alcohol. They've got the official one from the state that makes me legally obligated to stay out with he gun - so I stay out - even though I never carry the gun in town anyway.

    Too bad for them too. Their waitresses used to make at least a hundred bucks in tips every month just from me.
     
  9. spork

    spork Caffeinator

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    I have a problem with the Trooper who advised you. Ky does not prohibit license holders from carrying on private property unless they have been asked to leave by the property owner (and even then it is only a criminal tresspass charge).

    First, KRS 237.110 subsection 17 states that there is no criminal penalty for a licensee ignoring a posted sign on private property. Specifically, the section closes with the following:

    Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.

    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/237-00/110.PDF

    In addition, the KRS website states the following:


    In addition, Kentucky law does not prohibit the owners of private premises from excluding persons carrying firearms. Failure to vacate private premises when asked to do so could result in a criminal trespass charge.

    http://www.kentuckystatepolice.org/conceal.htm

    Of course, I may just be misunderstanding what the Trooper means by taking someone "to get processed", or maybe the Trooper was speaking about people who were asked to leave but refused, in which case they could be charged with criminal trespass.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  10. cdog533

    cdog533 Zombie Killer

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    But isn't the offense, if you violate the sign, a mere criminal trespass violation?

    So, if you get called out, and there's really no way you would/should if you act normally and are carrying concealed, you pay your $75 ticket and it's over.

    I don't think many states consider ignoring the signs to be a weapons violation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  11. uhlawpup

    uhlawpup l'Italia s'è desta

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    Not necessarily. If you saw it, it was conspicuous.

    From the DPS site:

    Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) further states that a sign must meet the following requirements:

    i.includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    ii.appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
    iii.is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
     
  12. Bill Lumberg

    Bill Lumberg

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    I prefer to associate with folks who try to do what is right and avoid what is wrong, not those who try to do whatever they might not get caught at or do what is clearly wrong but may carry a light punishment.
     
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  13. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    This is one thing that I like about the revised Kansas law. If an establishment wants to prohib concealed firearms they must place an 8x10 sign at eye level on the doors of the establishment.
     
  14. Adam5

    Adam5

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    I used to not care or look. In GA signs carry no legal weight. If they have a sign and I carry anyway, all they legally do is ask me to leave. If they ask and I don't leave, I will have then committed trespassing.

    I have since thought about it more and now look. Not for legal reasons, but for personal reasons. If they don't want in their place of business that's fine, it won't go in there, but neither will my money. There are very few things that I need or want to buy that I can't find buy from somewhere that dosn't mind my gun being on me.
     
  15. remat

    remat

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    In OR the literature for the CWP specifically says that if you violate the property owners rights you risk losing your license. In WA I don't think that is true. To me the sign should be clearly visible if they want anyone to honor it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  16. Quiet

    Quiet Casino Goon

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    In CA, posted signs have no legal weight. Except for those at government buildings.

    In NV, posted signs only have legal weight when they are posted at government buildings, schools & child care facilities. Posted signs have no legal weight when posted at privately owned buildings.

    No legal weight meaning it's legal to carry conceal there with a valid CCW permit, but if you get caught you can be asked to leave the property. Refusal to leave could generate a tresspassing charge.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  17. Facejackets

    Facejackets

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    I'm pretty sure that you can't have trespassing charges unless the business formally trespasses you, and then you come back. At least that is what I was told at my job when I have to tresspass people. You cant just be arrested for tresspassing if you were never formally informed that you were in the first place. Which means being detained, having the NRS 207.200 (I think thats the one) read to you, and you leaving, and subsequently coming back.

    I may be wrong about that though.
     
  18. Waboom!!

    Waboom!!

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    In Minnesota the anti's signs read " ______ Bans Guns on the this Property". If you violate it and are caught their security has to call in the heavies (police) who decide if you get a ticket. The fine is $25 and they CANNOT seize the firearm. The signs mean basically nothing because if its concealed how are they going to know? and $25 big whoop. I keep my pistol in the end.
     
  19. tx787

    tx787

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    I've haven't spent much time at all in Houston, but considering that's where Bill White was mayor it doesn't surprise me.

    I'm not advocating trying to get away with anything, in fact I follow the law exactly as it's written. But I expect others to do the same, so if a business uses 3/4" non-block letters on a non-contrasting surface I'm not going to pretend it's a valid sign. The lawmakers aren't idiots, they could have written the law less specifically if that was their intent.

    Alcohol is a whole different animal, especially in TX, because even if a place hasn't posted a 51% sign if you have reason to believe it's a 51% place you can't carry there. You also can't carry while intoxicated. I'm not going to try and interpret that so when I drink I never carry, my interpretation of the law is that it's completely prohibited. Some states, like NY of all places, allow you to drink and carry up to .08
     
  20. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    In FL a posted sign is not legally significant. It follows the model of the owner or his rep can tell you to leave for any reason (not protected) and you must comply. If you don't you face trespass charges. If you are armed and guilty of trespass it is armed trespass which is a felony.

    In my area there are two places posted that I have found. The Dog Track / Poker Room and one of the Malls have a sign of rules at 4 of 20 entrances in 1" letters no weapons on a sign I think pre-dates FL CWP program. Dick's Sporting Goods has not seen the sign I guess since they sell Guns in that mall. Other then that I have not seen anywhere posted but I am not going to do a complete inspection of every entrance looking.