[21Carrier]

Hey guys, I just got my G20LS up and running, and I think I may have an issue. The gun ran 100% through 205 rounds, and was amazingly accurate. I brought along 25 each of the following two loads to chronograph: Load 1, 135gr Nosler JHP, CCI 300, new Starline nickel, 13.0gr 800-X, COAL 1.260"; Load 2, same but with 13.3gr. I have shot about 400 of the 13.0gr load through my stock G29 with about 3 Glocksmiles. All of them were due to the ammo getting REALLY hot in the sun. That load hit about 1550fps in my G29.

Well, today, I shot a 10 round string. It averaged 1800fps on the nose. I was impressed, until I saw the brass. See for yourself:

It is painfully obvious from this brass that I came DAMN close to blowing up my brand new gun. What is bothering me is WHY? I know the extra barrel length increases pressure, but THAT MUCH?! LOOK AT THOSE PRIMERS!!! I pulled several rounds when I got home, and all were perfect. I only fired 10 of the 13.0gr string, and none of the 13.3gr string. I have also noticed that my LWD barrel has worse (or maybe equal) feed ramp support to my stock G29 barrel. Could I possibly have a barrel that is out of spec? Do you guys think that maybe my bore is too small? Or is this load just too hot for a 6" barrel? I thought many people had pushed much higher. I rechecked all aspects of the load, and they are all perfect. What do you think?

 

[OhioGlockMan]

Whoa you better not shoot that load any more!!!! I think it certainly is a possibility that the pressure would have more time to build with the longer barrel. One way to know- have someone you know with quickload software run the load for you- you put in all the parameters, barrel length, outside temperature, cartridge, powder, bullet, oal etc. I don't own quickload software, but have had friends on occasion run some loads for me for various rounds and then when I run them over the chronograph ive always been amazed how close the velocity comes out to be the same as quickload predicts. Quickload also predicts the psi pressure and will make you a chart that shows you the pressure curve as the bullet goes down the barrel- oh and it also predicts the percent of powder that will be burned. One of these days I just gotta buy that software, its 150 bucks

 

[OhioGlockMan]

I just thinking- the lone wolf barrel is a fully supported barrel, so even with an overpressure round why on earth would there even be a glocksmile bulge like in your pictures???

 

[Aloxite]

What recoil spring are you using?

I'm using a 20# spring in my 20LS with a 6" factory Glock barrel. I shot a bunch of 135 Noslers with 13.5 grains of 800x, CCI 300s, new starline brass, 1.26 OAL. No bulge at all.

One factor that could also come into play is the standard VS polygonal rifling. The standard rifling would increas drag and therefor increase pressure.

 

[21Carrier]

I just thinking- the lone wolf barrel is a fully supported barrel, so even with an overpressure round why on earth would there even be a glocksmile bulge like in your pictures???

That's what I'm saying! This barrel's chamber was obviously opened up by LWD before they sent it to me. It is pretty visible that someone did some cutting on the feed ramp. Like I said, the load was plenty safe in my G29's STOCK barrel. I knew the extra barrel length would increase pressure, but I figured the better chamber support would compensate. Unfortunately, it seems this is not a normal LWD barrel. I think they did some modification to ensure good feeding.

What recoil spring are you using?

I'm using a 20# spring in my 20LS with a 6" factory Glock barrel. I shot a bunch of 135 Noslers with 13.5 grains of 800x, CCI 300s, new starline brass, 1.26 OAL. No bulge at all.

One factor that could also come into play is the standard VS polygonal rifling. The standard rifling would increas drag and therefor increase pressure.

I'm using a 20lb spring as well. I think you're right. I think it was a combination of the larger standard rifling, and maybe a rough cut barrel (it wasn't ROUGH, but not as smooth as the Glock bores). During cleaning, I noticed that the copper fouling was VERY excessive. Worse than I've ever seen. That seems consistent with high friction. I lightly polished the inside of the bore, and LIGHTLY coated it with Frog Lube. I'm going to shoot some reduced loads tomorrow, and see if it makes a difference. I'll try to work back up to that load, and see if it gets better. If not, I'll swap it for a fully supported barrel.

 

[OhioGlockMan]

I have the same 6 inch lone wolf barrel and there is no doubt the chamber is fully supported, never any bulge anywhere- and my stock glock 20 barrel definately makes bulges. For what its worth I purchased it in January 2010 from Double Tap ammo. Please keep us posted on this issue- I'm very curious what Lone Wolf has to say and if they changed all the barrels to be non-fully supported for better feeding.

 

[OhioGlockMan]

21 Carrier- I got a question for you, have you noticed any glock smile bulges from other loads you have shot through your lone wolf barrel and even factory loads?? And if so how do they compare to the amount of bulge in your glock factory barrel?

 

[TDC20]

Carrier, I took a look at my LWD barrel and it doesn't look a lot different from yours. Of course, it's hard to tell from a picture. Here's a picture of my barrel's chamber (right) compared to the stock G20 chamber (left).

The second picture is another one of the LWD chamber, though it's not a very good picture.

The third picture is chamber support with the G20 stock barrel on the left and the LWD on the right.

I still think there's something else wrong with your barrel that is causing the high pressure results from previously tested good loads...loads that have also been fired by other GT members in their LWD barrels without similar problems...barring some kind of loading error. I have also had very little fouling in my barrel, no copper to speak of.

Here's some dimensions from my barrel: Chamber dia. = 0.426", chamber depth (measured from the lowest flat area on the breech) = 0.850", bore dia. at the muzzle (grooves) = 0.3995", Bore dia. at the muzzle (lands) = 0.3865" (the last measurement was difficult to make, but I think that's correct).

Hope this helps some.

 

[justinsaneok]

Might have a short chamber, tight chamber, or the bullet is starting in the lands so your getting a spike in pressure because there is no case volume increase at all from the bullet moving forward a little on ignition. So it just tries to relieve the pressure at the weakest point. The bullet might be getting pinched in the end of the chamber too.

 

[justinsaneok]

Are you bullets loaded long or is your crimp big? The rifling will make a difference. Big time if the bullet is smashed into the lands right at chambering.

 

[glock20c10mm]

I've seen enough threads around GT over the years now seeming to prove inconsistency with LWD barrels that I won't buy them. Some people end up perfectly happy, while too many others end up with a major PITA. The low cost of LWD barrels doesn't make up for that in my book.

KKM doesn't have as much chamber support as I'ld prefer.

For me it's Storm Lake all the way, no excuses. Storm Lake barrels are generally more expensive and harder to find. But once you've got one, you're more than likely set up from the git-go through the long haul with as much chamber support as you can get outside of a TC Contender barrel. Even though it's relatively meanial in a pistol barrel, I also like that Storm Lake barrels are cut-rifled. And, fit and finish is second to none.

Just too many unhappy campers with LWD for good reason. Why keep giving them the business?

 

[TDC20]

justinsaneok has an excellent point. The rifling should be tapered from the chamber. On my barrel, there's about 0.070" of freebore, followed by a ramping up to engage the full rifling over the distance of about 0.085". Here's another blurry pic, but if this isn't what you see, that's a big problem.

 

[OhioGlockMan]

Am I hearing all this right, that all of the aftermarket barrels (LW, storm lake, KKM, etal) are really not truly fully supported, and they all vary a lil in the amount of support? (even thought most of them still are way more supported then the factory glock barrels?

 

[_The_Shadow]

It would be nice to lock the slide and barrel together so ejection didn't take place to evaluate the actual affect cases with complete lockup. This would show if the slide was moving rearward dragging the casing out of the chamber before the pressures have dropped off.

I could be wrong but I have a feeling that the slide is actually dragging the case back leaving it unsupported more than normal! Primers could be slamming and pushing back on the slide as pressure builds.

Strange things can happen working on the very edges of performance envelope with the items in use.

 

[justinsaneok]

I was thinking about that before Shadow. Like when a light recoil spring with heavy striker spring pulls the gun out of battery.

I think the bullet is having a hard time getting out the barrel.
Cases to long
Case mouths to thick
loaded to long. bullet butted right into rifling. very possible
bullet to thick. I doubt it
Chamber to tight or short
barrel out of spec

 

[21Carrier]

I'm just going to send it back to LWD. I'll call them tomorrow. Something is not right here. I think someone opened up the chamber so that my gun would run 100% (which it absolutely does). However, I was getting smiles with 180gr bullets at 1260fps, and 200gr bullets at 1175fps. That shouldn't happen. I think the edge of the chamber is also somewhat sharp. I think that's making things worse, because a lot of this brass has just very minor smiles. They almost seem like the smiles are just creases pressed into the brass instead of a real smile. However, the thing has less support than my G29 barrel, and that's just unacceptable. If LWD can't find me one with good support, I'll ask them for a refund, and order from KKM or Storm Lake.

Yes, the rifling is tapered at the beginning, and there is a bit of leade before the rifling starts. All indications point to it being too aggressively opened up for reliability sake.

Shadow, if you want to test a barrel with complete lockup (no ejection), just place your thumb behind the slide, and push forward. Or, you can use your support palm. I know it SOUNDS like you will get hurt, but you won't. The slide won't move. As long as you hold it forward, it will never unlock, and the recoil will get transferred to the entire gun, not just the slide. It doesn't hurt. I was shooting all of this with a 20# spring, and remember, this is with a VERY heavy solid top long slide. So, I REALLY doubt early opening was the culprit.

Also, all rounds were checked, and measured 1.260" so they were not too long. Plus, I was using Nosler JHPs (135gr, 180gr, 200gr) with all of these loads. All of my Nosler bullets actually measure .399", so that should have HELPED.

 

[hubcap500]

No two barrels (or anything else) are EXACTLY the same. Bore diameters, finish, chamber dimensions, leade, etc., etc. will all affect the internal ballistics. Add length to the mix and it's just one more factor to influence pressures. Glad you didn't get hurt.

 

[OhioGlockMan]

21 Carrier, any update from Lone Wolf yet? If not please keep us updated, I'm very curious what LW has to say about this

 

[MinervaDoe]

Hey guys, .....
It is painfully obvious from this brass that I came DAMN close to blowing up my brand new gun...... What do you think?

If you end up blinding yourself or damaging your hands, it makes no difference to me.

But when you post your ridiculously over the top loads on the Internet, you run the risk of getting some impressionable new shooter injured.

If I want my loads to go as fast as the loads that you are posting, I pull out my bombproof Ruger Redhawk and use a safe published load.

What do you think?

You are what is wrong with Internet forums. You tell every impressionable new 10mm convert that they need an aftermarket barrel, a heavier spring and unpublished over the top loads.

It is painfully obvious from this brass that I came DAMN close to blowing up my brand new gun

It's painfully obvious to me that this has been a long time coming. What's not obvious to me is whether you or one of your followers is going to get hurt first.

Good luck. You're going to need it.

 

[arushus]

21carrier has actually been one of the few who tells people that an aftermarket barrel and parts isnt necessarily required, since he runs his 29 this way and hasnt had any problems.

Ive never seen him publish an over max load that didnt begin or end with a disclaimer about NOT using the data without doing your own work ups to it. He is always very clear about this. Im not saying he's perfect, hell no one is, but it isnt right for him to be singled out when Ive seen lots of over book max loads posted on here by different users. Any person who isnt smart enough or careful enough to know better than to start very low and work your way up when reloading doesnt belong near a firearm, period.

It is obvious that the problem here is the barrel. Have you been patiently waiting for a malfunction to pop up with his equipment so you could jump on it the first chamce you got?