Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone, thanks for any info ahead of time.

Alright I've got a very specific issue leading to my question. I'll try to not over explain but be detailed enough. Like most of everyone I've joined in on Glock smithing and 80%s. My issue is with some of the aftermarket slides specifically for the 19. I have had three aftermarket slides, currently down to two now. One optics cut, one irons only. I won't name the manufacturer of the slide I'm having issues with. But I will say that I had two (currently only 1 now) from Voodoo innovations and they were&are fantastic. One (optics cut) Enforcer, one (irons) Brawler.

I use trijicon suppressor sites to co-witness on both the optics slides. On the Enforcer slide my natural point of aim/impact and perfect co-witness with the dot from 3-25 yards. It shot lasers. Period. This is what I'm trying to achieve again.

Fast forward to my new optics cut slide from un-named well know manufacturer. Magically, all my shots are centered but 3-6 inches low at 3-25 yards. Nothing has changed but switching the slide. "Well why did you switch slides if everything was so perfect dumbass??" Well, I wanted a slide with more grip texture because I started getting serious with my defense training.

I digress...I had perfect aim/point of impact and co-witness before I switched optics ready slides. Now I don't. My irons only slide shoots lasers. Regardless of what frame I mount it on. I know I should just zero the optic and deal with my hold overs but some kinda co-witness is important to me in case my optic dies. Accurate threat stopping shots are what counts is all I'm saying.

Thanks for reading my rant again and sorry for any bad grammar I'm in a bit of a rush.
 

·
MacGyver
Joined
·
7,604 Posts
Confusing: So what is different between the slides you want to be the same, other than grip texture? They are 2 different individual slides. That is your answer.

Zero your optics first as the primary reference. I would ignore the iron sights, then move them to match the optic dot-- that is your cowitness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Confusing: So what is different between the slides you want to be the same, other than grip texture? They are 2 different individual slides. That is your answer.

Zero your optics first as the primary reference. I would ignore the iron sights, then move them to match the optic dot-- that is your cowitness.
I apologize for the confusion again. What I'm saying is with the first aftermarket (vodoo enforcer) slide my dot perfectly co-witnessed (golf balled with the front site) with my irons, at 5-15yrds. No holdovers. I could point and aim with my irons, and any shot went where I wanted it. With the second slide , after zeroing my dot, I have no co witness and no point of aim/impact at any distance. My zeroed dot is at the base of my front sight. I believe having functional backup sites I can see through the glass is important in case my dot dies.
 

·
MacGyver
Joined
·
7,604 Posts
after zeroing my dot, I have no co witness and no point of aim/impact at any distance. My zeroed dot is at the base of my front sight. .
Still very confusing write up of your problem.
If you are properly zeroed, POA=POI.
If that requires the dot to be at the base of suppressor height front sights, that would suggest to me that the optic is mounted too high (sight over bore). Call the people who made or milled your slide. Measure the depth of the slide cut compared to your other one- is the depth uniform at the front and back of the cut.
Without calling out the manufacturer of the slide, you are just fishing for answers here.

What optics are you using, and what sights? Is the optic the same one you used on the other slide. Is it mounted directly on the slide or is it sitting on an adapter or mounting plate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes I am using the exact same red dot. Hs 508t for that matter. Direct mount, no adapter plate. I understand where I made it confusing so let's take the red dot out of the equation. Two different slides, same barrel, same frame, same trijicon suppressor sites. Two very dfferent point of aim/impact.

I guess what I'm asking is could tolerances in barrel lockup affect the angle of the barrel and shot. I know not using manufacturer names isn't helping but I'd rather not attract attention in case someone believes I'm calling one product bad over the other. I have accepted that I more than likely am the issue. Zero, train, call it a day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,507 Posts
So your iron sights are shooting high? Sounds like you need a shorter rear sight. I would think you would adjust your iron sights first, then move the dot to match.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes in theory but I don't believe trijicon makes a shorter rear suppressor iron. It wasn't an issue before so other than me, the human factor, and changing the slide I can't think of any variables.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I have also purchased and tested Amerigo irons and it's the exact same result.

I think I'll get a machinist scale and measure center of bore to the top of the front site maybe that will give me some clues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,507 Posts
Yes in theory but I don't believe trijicon makes a shorter rear suppressor iron. It wasn't an issue before so other than me, the human factor, and changing the slide I can't think of any variables.
So your iron sights are the wrong ones for this particular slide? Sounds like you need a different set of irons.
 

·
MacGyver
Joined
·
7,604 Posts
. Two different slides, same barrel, same frame, same trijicon suppressor sites. Two very dfferent point of aim/impact.

I guess what I'm asking is could tolerances in barrel lockup affect the angle of the barrel and shot. .... Zero, train, call it a day.
End of the day you still have 2 different slides, so realistically can't expect the same from both, unless they are same model made by the same people, done on same machines. Wanting or assuming they will be the same, may not be realistic.

Bullet has left the gun before the slide moves, so barrel lockup is irrelevant.

Are you "zeroing" off a benchrest? If so, this is a tool calibration issue. If not, that's how you zero the gun at combat room distance (7-10 yards), to minimize shooter influence.
.
 

·
MacGyver
Joined
·
7,604 Posts
I would think you would adjust your iron sights first, then move the dot to match.
Why? Would you ever do this on a rifle? Same thing.

The Dot/optic is the primary sight, and is more accurate than the irons, is the reference. Irons are for BACK UP. With a good optic, you may never notice the irons again (like the forward assist on an AR).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,507 Posts
Why? Would you ever do this on a rifle? Same thing.

The Dot/optic is the primary sight, and is more accurate than the irons, is the reference. Irons are for BACK UP. With a good optic, you may never notice the irons again (like the forward assist on an AR).
If you want to assure co-witness, you would. Why have irons at all? Aren’t they really for when you’re using a suppressor? Wouldn’t you want them to be adjusted properly in that case?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,710 Posts
Hello everyone, thanks for any info ahead of time.

Alright I've got a very specific issue leading to my question. I'll try to not over explain but be detailed enough. Like most of everyone I've joined in on Glock smithing and 80%s. My issue is with some of the aftermarket slides specifically for the 19. I have had three aftermarket slides, currently down to two now. One optics cut, one irons only. I won't name the manufacturer of the slide I'm having issues with. But I will say that I had two (currently only 1 now) from Voodoo innovations and they were&are fantastic. One (optics cut) Enforcer, one (irons) Brawler.

I use trijicon suppressor sites to co-witness on both the optics slides. On the Enforcer slide my natural point of aim/impact and perfect co-witness with the dot from 3-25 yards. It shot lasers. Period. This is what I'm trying to achieve again.

Fast forward to my new optics cut slide from un-named well know manufacturer. Magically, all my shots are centered but 3-6 inches low at 3-25 yards. Nothing has changed but switching the slide. "Well why did you switch slides if everything was so perfect dumbass??" Well, I wanted a slide with more grip texture because I started getting serious with my defense training.

I digress...I had perfect aim/point of impact and co-witness before I switched optics ready slides. Now I don't. My irons only slide shoots lasers. Regardless of what frame I mount it on. I know I should just zero the optic and deal with my hold overs but some kinda co-witness is important to me in case my optic dies. Accurate threat stopping shots are what counts is all I'm saying.

Thanks for reading my rant again and sorry for any bad grammar I'm in a bit of a rush.
  1. It’s centered with the irons, so that’s good.
  2. Even small differences in sight pocket depth cut or geometry of a slide can change elevation requirements.
  3. Aftermarket slides will be close but not identical, so don’t assume that previous sights will just “work.”
  4. It’s not a malfunction or a problem, it’s just what it is.
  5. If you need a perfect co-witness, you may have to do a custom front height. Dawson Precision offers many different options.

Note. I use a lot of red dot optics and for most range guns I have irons that are “good enough” co-witness but not perfect in elevation. The same sights aren’t 100% applicable for a G35 shooting 357 Sig versus slow 40SW.

For carry guns with optics I insist on a perfect co-witness and often have to be very specific with ammo velocity and front sight height to achieve that sometimes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
End of the day you still have 2 different slides, so realistically can't expect the same from both, unless they are same model made by the same people, done on same machines. Wanting or assuming they will be the same, may not be realistic.

Bullet has left the gun before the slide moves, so barrel lockup is irrelevant.

Are you "zeroing" off a benchrest? If so, this is a tool calibration issue. If not, that's how you zero the gun at combat room distance (7-10 yards), to minimize shooter influence.
.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect near perfect perfect performance from two different products? I understand machines are only as good as the inputs we put in.

Yes, zeroed the dotodot a bench in hand. I'm doing a 25yd zero for the dot, and I WAS expecting my irons to match poa/poi at some point inside of those 25yds. Suppressor irons or not. Guess I was wrong
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
  1. It’s centered with the irons, so that’s good.
  2. Even small differences in sight pocket depth cut or geometry of a slide can change elevation requirements.
  3. Aftermarket slides will be close but not identical, so don’t assume that previous sights will just “work.”
  4. It’s not a malfunction or a problem, it’s just what it is.
  5. If you need a perfect co-witness, you may have to do a custom front height. Dawson Precision offers many different options.
Note. I use a lot of red dot optics and for most range guns I have irons that are “good enough” co-witness but not perfect in elevation. The same sights aren’t 100% applicable for a G35 shooting 357 Sig versus slow 40SW.

For carry guns with optics I insist on a perfect co-witness and often have to be very specific with ammo velocity and front sight height to achieve that sometimes.
Thanks for the input.

I'll look into some custom site options.

I would say it's super annoying and breaks my concentration. Hence why I'm here. It is my carry that's why I'm being so picky. In it's current status I must tilt my front sight up to see the dot. It's not much but it breaks a rear iron co-witness defeating any windage or elevation corrections.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,710 Posts
Thanks for the input.

I'll look into some custom site options.

I would say it's super annoying and breaks my concentration. Hence why I'm here. It is my carry that's why I'm being so picky. In it's current status I must tilt my front sight up to see the dot. It's not much but it breaks a rear iron co-witness defeating any windage or elevation corrections.
This covered a fair amount in a different thread, but keep in mind that when you are shooting a red dot with a perfect co-witness you actually hold so that the irons aren’t aligned anyway. So it really shouldn’t be distracting if you are doing it correctly.

These are a perfect co-witness. I held the dot off the side a little for image clarity purposes.
1E405B3E-150E-415B-BD92-50487E039660.jpeg


But when presenting and shooting, this is my sight picture:

D1BD7825-DB3B-43E1-8B7E-6420A1BF08C9.jpeg
 

·
MacGyver
Joined
·
7,604 Posts
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect near perfect perfect performance from two different products? I understand machines are only as good as the inputs we put in.
They are performing perfectly, just not the same, since they are not the same.
What you want, and wish for, vs. what is reality do not always match. As proofed here, that is the reason to zero (calibrate).
You will now start to see all sorts of posts with everyone describing different personal experiences with their guns. Good luck with your slide and sights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This covered a fair amount in a different thread, but keep in mind that when you are shooting a red dot with a perfect co-witness you actually hold so that the irons aren’t aligned anyway. So it really shouldn’t be distracting if you are doing it correctly.

These are a perfect co-witness. I held the dot off the side a little for image clarity purposes.
View attachment 758416

But when presenting and shooting, this is my sight picture:

View attachment 758418
The first picture is exactly what I'm looking to achieve. I was able to do so with the first slide and not the second. I realize dot presentation is irrelevant, And ive trained past that already.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
J
They are performing perfectly, just not the same, since they are not the same.
What you want, and wish for, vs. what is reality do not always match. As proofed here, that is the reason to zero (calibrate).
You will now start to see all sorts of posts with everyone describing different personal experiences with their guns. Good luck with your slide and sights.
Just looking for some clarification because this is uncharted territory for many shooters. Thanks for the input
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,710 Posts
The first picture is exactly what I'm looking to achieve. I was able to do so with the first slide and not the second. I realize dot presentation is irrelevant, And ive trained past that already.
You have not trained past it if you find it “breaks your concentration.”

You shouldn’t even notice the irons when shooting red dots. If you are doing it properly. I compete with red dots and have probably 30k plus red dot handgun rounds shot in the past year.

Honestly, it’s kind of noobish that you’d think an aftermarket slide would necessarily have identical dimensions to a factory slide and that you think that’s a “flaw” if it doesn’t. We are talking about fractions of millimeters here for sight heights. It’s trigonometry. Even the placement of the sight cuts on the slide requires some specific changes.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top