Point and Shoot

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by Worn, Nov 18, 2016.

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  1. Worn

    Worn Constitutional Conservative

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    I have a gen 2 G19 that I've put at least 10K rounds through. Love it. The Mrs. Has a gen 2.5 G26 with far fewer rounds and we both love our Glocks. But...

    Glock is not the only handgun I own and I recently noticed how much better I shoot my Beretta 9mm. And I know why: When I just look at a target and then point my weapon and shoot, not looking at the weapon, not looking at the sights, always just looking at the target, the Beretta will always be closer to the mark than the Glock, despite many, many more rounds of practice through the Glock. I blame the grip angle.

    If I do the same with the Glock, just point and shoot without looking at the sights, I'm always high. My natural grip just favors the Beretta. With the Glock, I have to train myself to break my wrist and lower my natural point of aim.

    Once I realized this, I decided to try the same with some of my other 9mm handguns. NOTE: this is really easy to do at home using one of those 9mm laser cartridges. I've had a LaserLyte for years and done countless hours of dry practice with the laser. They are well worth the money.

    As I was saying, I decided to try other handguns. Walther, Kahr, Kel-Tec and Browning Hi-Power, plus the Beretta mentioned earlier. For me, every one of them was closer to the height of the target when (point and shoot) fired with the laser than was the G19. My natural grip of the G19 always had the muzzle aimed too high.

    But that's just me. I'm curious though whether or not I'm alone in this. Many people believe that the Glock grip angle is superior. Many believe otherwise. It's very contentious. It might just be the way each of us is built.

    I've read on the subject and watched a ton of YouTube videos and most everyone goes on comparing angles and such but few actually address the effect it has on a shooter's accuracy. Yes, muscle memory can overcome the grip angle problem but, let's face it, it's going to be easier to develop that muscle memory if your natural grip doesn't have the muzzle pointing way too high to begin with.

    If one is looking for accuracy, it makes sense to start with a weapon which, when gripped naturally and pointed (not aimed) at the target, is closest to hitting that target. I'd been thinking about a new Gen 4 G19 MOS but, based on the grip angle, I may go with a compact Beretta as my new EDC.

    Maybe I have weird wrists. Other people rave over the Glock grip angle. Maybe they're just built differently.
    I'd like to know if anyone has tried the "point and shoot" method and compared various handguns to see which was most suitable for them. You don't need a laser. You can certainly shoot paper at the range, but a laser makes it much easier and you can do it at home.

    The way I see it (and my Glock and I have been to Front Sight's 4-day Defensive handgun class), in an actual personal defense situation, I may not be cool enough to check the front sight as I would for close shot placement. I may just point and shoot. And if I do that, I want my shots to go as close as they can to what a have as a target.

    Comments?
     
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  2. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    I like the Glock 17 gen 4, no inserts, better than earlier versions, and better than the 19. Points naturally for me, same as my Beretta 92 and a 1911.

    No matter the gun, worth making sure you like how it holds.

    As far as accuracy, if using sights, probably doesn't matter much. Where it matters is when not using the sights :)
     

  3. texmex

    texmex

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    Just like the stock on a fine shotgun, the weapon needs to fit you. It needs to "shoot where you are looking". Whatever works best for you. Like a pair of 8 1/2 D boots. If they don't fit you, there is nothing wrong with them, they just don't fit. Some platforms seem to fit lots of people (Browning Hi-Power for example). No one size fits all. No real right or wrong. Just what fits.
     
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  4. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here. It's not the gun, it's you.*

    You say you have countless hours of practice, but you obviously have not ingrained the motion. So what this would tell an instructor is that you're not doing the *right* practice. Remember practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. So when you're practicing, you aren't focusing on getting your grip angle and gun alignment with your body. If you mentally go through the motions without trying to be correct and precise in every movement (which your result says you aren't), then you're only going to make these smaller errors harder to fix.

    I went through the same thing, but in a little different manner. The first handguns I shot were Glocks, pretty much exclusively. When I tried to use any other pistol, particularly Sigs. I would literally miss the target at 7 yards. Then, I made a decision to switch to HK pistols...exclusively, even though I shot *worse* with them. The first thing I noticed is that on my draw, my sights weren't aligned on my draw. So I sat down and logically diagnosed the problem. After I found it was the wrist angle I put all of my attention on that problem. Guess what, I can pick up an HK and have it point naturally for me. Glocks became unnatural. The same thing happened when I went back to Glock. I currently shoot a 1911 the most. I've gotten to where it takes me about a week or two of dry fire practice to re-index my grip without thinking. Okay, enough of that. Here is the secret.

    Your screwing yourself up before you get that gun out of the holster. The proper grip angle is achieved when you initially grip the gun. If you grip a Glock like a 1911 in the holster, you will be high unless you consciously correct it between your grip and your draw, which will never fix the problem for good. When you shoot a Glock, you are forced to tense the muscles on the ulna side of your forearm (forgive me, I don't remember anatomy). This is what pulls the wrist down into the "natural" point. If you do this on a 1911 you will point low. Make an effort to consciously tighten this muscle when shooting a Glock while practicing, this will drop the Glock sights down and inline. From there, your job becomes keeping the gun level beginning at the rotate phase of the draw all the way out to full extension.

    However, if you cannot figure this out, or devote the time to fixing the biomechanical aspects of the draw, don't shoot a Glock. It's that simple. But really, it's not the gun. It's you.


    *unless you're severely deformed in the wrist region
     
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  5. Cheseldine

    Cheseldine Texan

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    For me a Colt Peacemaker/Ruger Vaquero points super naturally, even from the hip.
     
  6. ak103k

    ak103k

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    I agree.

    These days, I shoot a couple of Glocks weekly, and a mix of others, 1911's, SIG's, HP's, etc, off and on. Once you spend some quality time with any of them, your brain registers the index, and you should easily be able to switch back and forth within a mag or so.

    I have no problem point shooting any of them.
     
  7. ede

    ede

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    I use a Remington 572 pump in NSSF mechanical division and often beat my time with a 10/22 in limited division . The Remington pump is the most natural pointing firearm I've ever fired. Not experienced this so much with a handgun.
     
  8. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    I shoot a G19 point shooting better than a G17 or G34; just feels "better" in my hand. I suspect everybody has a feel better gun, you just have to find it.

    wp
     
  9. Cambo

    Cambo

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    I don't have to use my Browning Hi Power sights until 15 yards. Some guns are just instinctive, with their grip angle design.
     
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  10. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Bigfoot enthusiast enthusiast

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    When I do a 1911.build where the coustimer will be installing his own sights I test fire without sights and have no problem making the test target look good
     
  11. Haldor

    Haldor Formerly retired EE.

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    How much have you shot your wife's G26? I found that it fit my hand much, much better than my G19 ever did (which is why I sold the G19). Gen 4 Glocks have interchangeable backstraps which you may find fit your hand better. I found I much prefer shooting my Gen 4, G20 without an extra backstrap at all.

    Beretta has a much nicer trigger pull in SA also. However if I ever had to use it for real, the first round is going to be double action which is much inferior to the Glock's trigger pull. That is one of the reasons why my 92FS is relegated to range use only.
    I am only interested in striker fired, Glock style pistols (no mechanical safety, consistent trigger pull) like the G26 and Ruger LC9s-Pro for CCW.

    For home defense I require a weapon mounted light. I have a G20 in a nightstand safe, and a loaded PS90 in the primary safe for bumps in the night.
     
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  12. Worn

    Worn Constitutional Conservative

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    Are you discounting grip angle as a determinant of how much one needs to alter their natural grip to achieve accuracy? Just take a look at an old muzzleloader pistol and tell me that angle of that grip (almost straight out back from the muzzle) doesn't matter.

    Of course I am, but I DO have to "focus" to get it right. Remember, I'm talking about my natural (unadjusted) grip.

    You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm talking about my natural, uncorrected grip.

    One is not going to have more than one natural grip. And grip angle will very much play a part in accuracy when using that natural, unaltered, uncorrected grip. In my case, that natural grip favors non-Glocks. For others, I suspect that it favors Glocks and that other folks don't have to consciously correct to achieve accuracy with a Glock the way I do. At least that's the theory I was posting my question to investigate.



     
  13. Worn

    Worn Constitutional Conservative

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    And that is the point. When switching TO my Glock, it always takes a few shots to correct my natural grip and get my shots down where they belong. I do not have that problem with other handguns.

    For that reason (having to correct my initial, natural grip) I think my G19 is a bad choice as an EDC weapon. When my safety is involved, I want to hit my target straightaway, not "within a mag or so."

    Yes, I can always become accurate "within a mag or so" (usually less) when switching to my Glock. And non-Glocks, for me, are even quicker to get on target when switching from one to another. I'm not complaining about how any of my weapons shoot.

    So, I'll try to ask again: Are there some of you for whom the Glock is a better fit to your own natural grip?
     
  14. Vodoun da Vinci

    Vodoun da Vinci

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    Being a *huge* aficionado and proponent of "point shooting", point and shoot. threat focused shooting, indexing, etc I have to say this is how 90% of my shooting/training is conducted.

    As a proponent of Point Shooting I would say that some guns, in the hands of some people, work much better for this style of shooting than others - Everybody finds their own best/favorite, inherently accurate pistol and one size does not fit all.

    You can train into it to some degree....my most accurate point and shoot gun is a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless and the bullets just go where I look whether shooting from the hip, half hip, or extended. No sense trying to find the sights on this gun, it shoots where I look without them.

    So if a particular gun (Glock or whatever) is not "perfect" in point shooting use another gun. No shame in gravitating toward tools that are inherently more potent for us once we have decided what style we intend to pursue.

    That said I found that the G26 and the G43 were *very*accurate for me Point Shooting. I'm not sure this has to do with grip angle or whatever. For me it either works well right out of the box or it doesn't.

    VooDoo
     
  15. pblanc

    pblanc

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    Many people, including myself. have issues with the Glock grip design. It is not just the angle of the grip, it is also the exaggerated palm swell low down on the back strap that pushes the muzzle of the pistol up. Glock fans are sometimes quick to point out that the grip angle of the Glock is not that different from that of the model 1911. That might be so it one uses a line drawn down the front strap of the grip to measure the angle. But it is not the front strap that determines how the gun points so much as the back strap. The fingers can adapt to many different configurations of front strap, but the palm cannot adjust for the big "Glock hump" on the back strap. And there are many model 1911 shooters who prefer the straight mainspring housing of the original to the arched mainspring housing of the 1911A1 for precisely the same reason. But the swell of the arched mainspring housing of the 1911A1 is much less pronounced than that of the Glock hump.

    As for the cocked wrist position required of the strong hand to get the Glock to point naturally being "natural", I say horsepucky. Maybe it is for some people, but not for me. And the constant refrain from Glock fans is that any difficulty encountered with the Glock is invariably the fault of the shooter and not the design of the pistol.

    I have repeatedly been told and read that with time and practice one can adapt to the Glock grip design and this may be true. But why the hell should one do so when there are now many polymer-framed, striker-fired pistols that are as good or better than the Glock?
     
  16. ChicagoZman

    ChicagoZman

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    If I "aim" the gun with eyes closed and then open them and am on target I have a gun with the "proper" grip angle.

    All of my Glocks, my Browning HP Practical, my 1911s with arched mainspring housing and my FNP all point naturally for me. My 1911s with flat mainspring housing points low.
     
  17. Steel Head

    Steel Head Tactical Cat

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    Same here much prefer the compacts to others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016