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Plates

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by jay.shebuski, Mar 17, 2003.

  1. jay.shebuski

    jay.shebuski

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    ..I have been doing some experimenting, now that I actually belong to a club and can shoot..the big club I've always belonged to (the Army)doesn't allow shooting..go figure.

    Anyways, I'm finding that, I'm using my stance more and my sights less to drop my times on the plates..shooting more w/what I think some people call "muscle memory".

    ..and actually pre-squeezing the trigger, before I percieve the muzzle on target..ie, at the base of the rack or say several inches to the right of the plate moving horizontally...then working on a pace or rythm as the gun moves horizontally across the rack. I can see my front sight, and I am consciously attempting to focus my eyes on that..but I'm not waiting for a clear "focus".

    ..anyone else using a similar technique?

    Jay
     
  2. MFinch

    MFinch Guest

    I've been working on the plates lately and taking a different approach all together. I'm not taking a half approach to practice this year....got in a new timer, targets, have a regulation plate rack, shooting several different guns, different loads, etc.....

    A few recent re-learnings on the plates. The timer makes the difference and really tells the truth. Watching Clem and BCarver shoot the plates was a key learning at San Antonio... the speed of the firtst shot is one of the keys to dropping some time from the plate runs. Again, the timer tells you how you are doing. The second thing has to do with grip/stance. Really bearing down and gripping the gun tightly was causing inconsistent recoil and making it hard to track the dot. It just did not behave consistently. Relaxing somewhat with a slightly lighter grip allowed the gun to recoil consistently, dropping the dot in for the next shot and helping develop a smoother plate run.

    Hope this helps.
     

  3. jay.shebuski

    jay.shebuski

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    ..or maybe "better said"..I'm doing what Brian Enos talks about in his book...:)

    Jay
     
  4. njl

    njl

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    What are your times like? I have access to plate racks at the local range and my own timer, so I get to practice on them quite a bit. When I'm shooting well, I find that I get a sight picture on the first plate. If I hit that plate, I index over, don't pay alot of attention to the sight picture, and squeze again. Splits are typically around 0.5s. Getting the sight picture on the first one usually takes me about 1.5s. I've had a couple of sub-4s runs, but of course, not in matches. :)

    I still wait to hear/see the plate go down before indexing over...I know this is wrong and slowing me down...but it's a hard habit to break.

    Consistent stance and "muscle memory" are likely the keys to speed. When I dry fire practice, I'll practice going from low ready to aiming at some point. Usually, I find that I can look at that point and bring the gun up on target. i.e. start at low ready. Focus on whatever you're using as your target. Raise the gun without looking at the sights. Then look at the sights, and you'll see that they're on target or pretty darn close. Go back to low ready. Focus on another target. Raise. Check the sights...you're on target. When you've gotten used to raising the gun to your point of focus, the first shot should get much faster.

    Of course, this is all just theory to me...I haven't actually benefitted from it yet (thus my 1.5s first shots at the plates), but I intend to start trying it soon in live fire practice.
     
  5. jay.shebuski

    jay.shebuski

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    ..when it works:)..I'm getting the 1st plate around .60 and finishing a run in sub 3.0..like 2.5-2.8.

    ..when it doesn't..and I miss the 1st plate or the 2nd..then we're talking 3.0+.

    The rythm between the 1st and 2nd plate is what is throwing me now, and I need to train. I'm fighting between the urge to see/hear the 1st plate fall and moving on to the 2nd.

    The remaining plates are OK

    ..I just have to "let myself go"..not consciously interfere w/my "ying and yang".."live in the present"..."just do it"...

    Jay
     
  6. Flexmoney

    Flexmoney

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    Jay,

    The inconsistency that you are reporting ("when it works vs. when it doesn't") is a direct result of not seeing what you need to see. It takes a lot of visual patience to be able to call the shot on the plates. But, if you aren't able to call the shot, you aren't able to move to the next plate with confidence. (that is likely what you are experiencing when you are "fighting the urge to see/hear the first plate fall...")

    I am not a big fan of shooting with a rhythm or cadence. But, if anything can be shot with a rhythm, then it is closely space steel at 11 yards.

    Day in and day out, however, there are many things that can affect a shooter's rhythm...match tension being one of the major factors.

    In my experience, shooting plates with a rhythm can be blazingly fast. Or...it can be slow as molasses (due to being off).

    Whether you shoot with a rhythm or with a front sight foucs...make sure that you SEE. And, work on that index. It is vital to any type of speed shooting.

    (BTW, what part of Brain book where you referring too? Page number?)
     
  7. FotoTomas

    FotoTomas Pure Polymer

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  8. 40blaster

    40blaster

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    Hi Jay;
    I was standing with you in line at Orlando and have been watching your scores recently. Way to go.
    I use a set of cardboard plates stapeled to a target stick and have it set on the TV for dry fire practice. Did a few thousand under two seconds and it really changed my plate times. It is preportionatly correct, if I stand behind my chair. I shoot in the middle two's during practice but usually miss the fifth plate, a few times, at a match. I know I am rushing, as each plate falls, but cannot seem to get a handle on my over one hundred and thirty pulse rate. Patience goes out the window at one-thirty something.
    Another problem I have noticed is the plate rack at my home club is on level ground and when I go to places like Orlando and the rack is built into the back of the berm it's a little higher and that really caused me low hits. Also, places like Indy had huge concrete baffels hanging over the range and we had to stand on rocks as big as basketballs. Orlando was really different too, what with the shade and other stuff.
    I know I will get a lot of pooh-poohs but a lot of the better shooters start out with their fingers on the trigger, which saves a good quarter of a second, each string. I have RO'd six GSSF matches and have watched almost all of the top shooters on the east coast. Intense concentration seems to be common among them.
    Hope to see you at SC.
    Fred
     
  9. Flexmoney

    Flexmoney

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    Fred,

    I want to point this out (from your post), not as criticism...but, in hopes of pointing out something that may help you in your shooting.

    You talked about the difference in the range and where/how the plates are set up as affecting your shooting. Any little thing can throw you off. Again...this can be a problem when shooting off a rhythm or cadence.

    See everything! :)
     
  10. jay.shebuski

    jay.shebuski

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    ...yes,..I agree.

    I see everything..and I'm learning to synchronize my actions (trigger squeeze, body movement) w/what I'm perceiving, at any given moment.

    Perhaps "rythm" was not the best word to describe what I'm trying.

    I'm not stopping at each plate, rather, using a smooth movement through them and sometimes, when I do it fastest, I complete a run, before I consciously know I have done it..yet, I saw the plates coming, my front sight, and I moved my body through the run.

    ...sometimes, actually picking up speed on the later plates.

    I'm finding the transition between the 1st and 2nd plate to be my biggest challenge now...and "rushing" that shot is my biggest problem to overcome.

    Jay
     
  11. glocklady

    glocklady and my buddy

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    Here's my practice routine: 1. Keep a log, and write down your times, the conditions at the range, and how you felt, how you did.

    Depending on what I'm working on I vary exercises on the plate rack.
    An exercise for exercising good trigger control is shooting from the 25 yard line. If you tend to mash the trigger, you won't hit the plates. Since this is the greatest distance for 5TG, you can accomplish better group sizes with this exercise, too. My bad habit (or biggest bad habit :) ) is that I shoot in a rhythm instead of looking at the front sight. This exercise helps curb that impulse.

    Another exercise, probably already mentioned, is to only practice low-ready to first-shot. Use a timer! You can practice this multiple times before resetting the plates. The important thing here is to adjust your NPA to the plate you are going to shoot. (NPA - Natural Point of Aim) Okay, better explain that... Close your eyes, lower your gun, relax, and bring the gun up to shooting position. Open your eyes and look at where the gun is pointed. If the gun is too far left of the target, move your right foot back a little bit. If it is too far right, move your foot up a little. Close, repeat test. After awhile you'll be able to set up pretty quickly. (You'll see me doing this at a match with just a finger-point while the Range Officer is getting set up.) Back to the plates. Your NPA should be at the first plate you address.

    Another exercise, moving from the knees and hips... You shoud not move your torso at the waist, or worse yet, with your arms. Guys tend to have a good deal of upper body strength and try to wrestle the gun. To emphasize moving correctly, I use paper plates stapled to paper targets, spread in a fan at a regular (large) interval. Shoot each one once, and use your knees and hips to transition to the next target. Shooting paper plates also helps you learn not to wait for the plate to ring and to fall. Extra hearing protection -- plugs and muffs -- also helps you "not listen" to the plate fall.

    That should keep you busy awhile!

    Debbie
    <img src="http://glocktalk.com/avatar.php?userid=220&dateline=1000172035">
    ___________________
    "I still miss my ex-husband, but my aim is improving"
     
  12. Flexmoney

    Flexmoney

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    Jay,

    I'm not stopping at each plate, rather, using a smooth movement through them and sometimes...

    What you are describing here is what I would refer to as "rolling thru" the targets.
     
  13. DaleGribble

    DaleGribble Sandwich!

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    Utilizing the tips in this thread I was able to stand at the eleven yard mark and a run the plate rack in 1.8 seconds, with my eyes closed, quite simply I became one with the gun! ;g ;g ;c

    Of course I'm dreaming, I ran the rack today in about 15 seconds, I think. I only timed myself on my wrist watch, so I dont know what my exact time was.
     
  14. FotoTomas

    FotoTomas Pure Polymer

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    I wish I had a plate rack to practice on!

    Fireglock...gonna set me up with where to shoot when I get back to the sunshine state? I want to shoot like the "Big Boys". :)
     
  15. Fireglock

    Fireglock Which is worse?

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    I'm working on it!
     
  16. njl

    njl

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  17. jay.shebuski

    jay.shebuski

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    Glocklady....I took note of your tips and tried the double hearing protection (plugs and muffs)...and it worked great:) I had several sub 3 sec runs at Anderson.

    Thanks.

    ...as I'm getting better at this, I'm finding my stance is becoming more & more important; locking out my arms in more of a "classic" isosceles w/my feet a little wider than shoulder width apart and an "aggressive" bend in the knees, and a little lean forward. This helps me recover quick from the muzzle rise and also helps me to "square off" on each plate, from the ankles up.

    This is "contradictory" to what I have been taught for "urban" upright/off hand shooting (Army CQC/CQB)which emphasised a more relaxed almost walking posture stance when engaging targets. Never could get that down:)

    Jay