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Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by chivvalry, Mar 25, 2011.
We are going to continue discussing this incident.
If you choose to post in this thread, follow ALL GT Rules, TOS and posting guidelines.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Rude and insulting posts will not be tolerated.
This is a serious issue that deserves serious discussion to resolve the problem with the Philly PD.
Make positive contributions to the discussion and all will be good.
Just paraphrasing your response to my statement in the old thread and hoping you would clarify.
I happened to have read through a majority of the Mark's posts on PAFOA regarding his several encounters with PPD regarding his open carrying (one time he was stopped while on a park bench OCing while also wearing headphones)..and I can say without a doubt, he knew this encounter was coming.
From the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:
§ 21. Right to bear arms.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of
themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
From Title 18 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes:
§ 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and
(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may
in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession,
transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition
components when carried or transported for purposes not
prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.
(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or
about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to
carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement
officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary
hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time
upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of
the first class unless:
(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm;
If anyone would like to cite any Pennsylvania law during this discussion, usage and linking to what is on the Pennsylvania General Assembly website would be best.
Pennsylvania General Assembly Website:
Consolidated Statutes (Main contents page):
Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania:
Title 18 in it's entirety:
Title 18 Chapter 61 only (PA UFA):
I will, tomorrow...long day.
I would like to put forth a few more sections of the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for your consideration:
§ 1. Inherent rights of mankind.
All men are born equally free and independent, and have
certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those
of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring,
possessing and protecting property and reputation, and of
pursuing their own happiness.
§ 25. Reservation of powers in people.
To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we
have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is
excepted out of the general powers of government and shall
forever remain inviolate.
§ 26. No discrimination by Commonwealth and its political
Neither the Commonwealth nor any political subdivision
thereof shall deny to any person the enjoyment of any civil
right, nor discriminate against any person in the exercise of
any civil right.
I live in Philadelphia, and would like to see this thread discussed.
I hope this helps us get a clear start, so everyone has access to the Pennsylvania Code from the most reputable place possible, at the PA General Assembly website.
I've tried to make it as easy as possible for anyone to cite any specific section of the consolidated statutes, so we don't have to waste time second guessing the validity of links or information.
Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) Chapter 61 is the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act, which comprises the laws concerning firearms in Pennsylvania.
A few other sections of Title 18 can bear relevance, as laid out by some case law, which is why I included a link above in case anyone needs it.
Section 6120 is a pre-emption, prohibiting a municipality (such as Philadelphia) from drafting it's own laws to prohibit anything not specifically covered by state law. Laws concerning firearms in Pennsylvania are laid out by the state, Period. Just in case anyone was unclear on that point.
The only "City of the first class" in Pennsylvania is the City of Philadelphia.
I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.
Patrick Link, ADA, letter on open carry.
2009 MPOETC training (OC Excerpt)
Philadelphia police memo (9/2010) *note that this memo seems to violate their training materials
Samspade's excellent discussion on legalities of police encounters
This was posted on Real Police on 10/09/2010 by one of their Moderators, Joeyd6. http://www.realpolice.net/forums/as...re-open-concealed-carry-laws.html#post1108411
How does it do so?
Question and answer #3 in the MPOTEC_OC training states that:
This does allow the exception of carry in Philadelphia being a legal justification for a stop and frisk, however, the memo demands the stop and frisk action which eliminates officer discretion and, in my opinion, amounts to an official stance that open carrying is to be oppressed by harassment.
This also states that an individual MAY BE required to produce when carrying in Philadelphia... making it clear that it is officer discretion and should not have been mandated by the memo.
The headphones thing was a bad idea on my part. I've learned from everyone OC encounter I've had and that's one of the important ones. No more compromising my SA while carrying. Or in general.
As for knowing it was going to happen - first of all, I did not know that it was going to happen that day. I was not trying to set up the police or anything like some people seem to think. However, in hindsight, I think it's a good thing to make hot-topic issues more visible, because then it may more easily expose the corruption or lack of respect for the law that some police departments have, and helps to effect a change in their policies and treatment of citizens.
I have to bring up Rosa Parks, but do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?
Viper! Welcome and glad you made it. I never pictured you as a small black woman though...
Thanks for the welcome. I'm excited to see how this thread turns out - I welcome dissenting opinions, but I hope it can focus on the behavior of the police and their disregard or ignorance of the law, and how to rectify the issue, and not an OC vs. CC debacle.
There's a little conflict here. First you say, "...I did not know that it was going to happen...", but, then you compare your situation that day to Ms. Parks, saying, "...do you think she thought she was going to be left alone when she refused to move?"
Did you think, as you imply Ms. Parks thought, you were just going to left alone open carrying there in Philly?
Viper, welcome! Glad you could make it over here.
We're glad you came in.
The behavior of certain members of PPD is well documented on different forums. PPD's policy on dealing with open carriers is posted above as well as the applicable laws.
However, any discussion of this incident must include some discussion about you and the events leading up to that day. Around here it's referred to as totality of circumstances.
No, any effort to expand the focus of this thread to a broader discussion not directly, very directly linked to this topic will not be tolerated.
Or as I like to call it cop-speak for "How can I avoid taking responsibility for my unlawful actions".
This term comes up every time we discuss bad (or criminal) actions of a LEO and citizens. It appears to also be used when Police brass want to hide bad officers from the public view.
Top score! You've demonstrated a total lack of comprehension of what the totality of the circumstance means, legally speaking. Better go back and guard the hotel. Totality speaking, of course.
As a supporter of open carry, I use open carry when appropriate, which is mostly when I'm working, and use my own discernment to dictate when I feel it is appropriate or necessary. I don't open carry for the advocacy of it, I do it because its legal, and there are times when it benefits me.
I think there was fault on both the officers part and this new ViperGTS19801 fellow, Welcome by the way, the officer overreacted and ViperGTS didn't help the matter either by being confrontational. I would have obeyed the officers commands, and after the situation was over, I would have decided if I felt the officers actions were out of line enough to file a former complaint with the dept and took it from there.
I support your right to open carry, and I also support the right of the officers to put their safety temporarily above all else until they better understand the situation.
This could have been handled better by all parties involved, and I hope everyone involved learned something valuable from this.