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Discussion Starter #1
What is the pattern of 00,000, no 4 buck shot at 5-10feet? Is the spread enought to make hitting someone easier than with an AK47 or M1A socom? Just debating if a spread is enough to make a shotgun better than a 30 or 20 round rifle with less recoil... Looking at benelli m4 or improved cylinder choked guns.
 

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What is the pattern of 00,000, no 4 buck shot at 5-10feet? Is the spread enought to make hitting someone easier than with an AK47 or M1A socom? Just debating if a spread is enough to make a shotgun better than a 30 or 20 round rifle with less recoil... Looking at benelli m4 or improved cylinder choked guns.
Go to www.theboxotruth.com They have a multi-part set of tests that they did on this question. Besides - it's a fun site:cool:
 

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Short answer, no, the pattern is about fist size.

The main advantage of a shotgun is the shorter danger zone, rifle rounds are like the Energizer Bunny, they keep going, and going, and going.

That and the damage from a shotgun is pretty severe at close range.
 

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The main advantage of a shotgun is the shorter danger zone, rifle rounds are like the Energizer Bunny, they keep going, and going, and going.
Not the 5.56mm/.223
 

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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45.htm

Has some good pics showing just how big various patterns are from a few different guns at 10 yards. Bigger than a single rifle round, but certainly not big enough that you don't need to worry about aiming.

Saying its "easier" to hit something with a shotgun is misleading. Shotguns are, generally speaking, simpler to load, aim and fire than most modern semi-auto rifles. That may make them easier to use with less training than a rifle, but doesn't negate the need for training all together.

I still think for "indoor" ranges a shotgun is a better choice than a rifle, which is why I keep my 12 gauge and G19 loaded and my Saiga in the closet.
 

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In general, I believe there are "shotgun people" and "rifle people."

I've been a competent shot with a rifle since I was about 10 years old.

I've never mastered the shotgun, although I've tried trap & skeet and defensive shotgunning. I'm good enough with my scoped rifled Trophy Slugster M500, but that's really a scattergun pretending to be a rifle.
For home defense, there's an 18.5" cyl bore barrel on it, but I'd really rather grab an AK.

Even without using sights, I'm just more comfortable pointing one of my rifles than one of my shotguns. I think it's a familiarity issue.

Of course, being responsible for the final resting place of every single projectile means keeping track of 9 or 12 or more balls with each round from a 12g, but only one bullet at a time with a rifle. This might or might not be offset by the issues of overpenetration, YMMV, etc.

I guess I just like to make holes one at a time. I find this easier with a rifle than a shotgun.
 

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Just don't believe the old lie about sweeping the hall with a load of buckshot.
 

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Not the 5.56mm/.223
The .223 is just as overpenetrative of residential sheetrock walls as anything else -- unless you use the sort of lightweight "explosively expanding" varmint bullets that are not all that effective against people (bloody surface wounds without adequate penetration).

Anything that will penetrate a person well enough to reliably kill them will penetrate multiple sheetrock walls. That goes for all projectiles, regardless of rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

You cannot count on sheetrock to stop any kind of effective anti-personnel projectile.

-ET
 

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These were my patterning results w/00 buck out of a 18 1/2 inch cylinder bore 870.

5.5 inches at 15 feet.

6.5 inches at 30 feet.

7.25 inches at 45 feet.

8.25 inches at 60 feet.

9.25 inches at 75 feet.
 

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Thanks for the data. Now if you add in most guys' modified chokes and longer barrels, it's probably half that.
 

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The .223 is just as overpenetrative of residential sheetrock walls as anything else -- unless you use the sort of lightweight "explosively expanding" varmint bullets that are not all that effective against people (bloody surface wounds without adequate penetration).

Anything that will penetrate a person well enough to reliably kill them will penetrate multiple sheetrock walls. That goes for all projectiles, regardless of rifle, pistol, or shotgun.

You cannot count on sheetrock to stop any kind of effective anti-personnel projectile.

-ET
You are correct that you cannot assume that sheetrock will stop a projectile.

But, due to tumbling and fragmentation the .223 will penetrate less than buckshot and 9mm will.

Always know what is beyond your target, but don't assume that just because it is a shotgun that it will not penetrate further than anything else. Which is why some are suggesting going to go to bird shot for your HD loads rather buck shot so as to minimize the amount of penetration through walls and such that may be beyond your target if the shotgun is what you will be using.
 

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You are correct that you cannot assume that sheetrock will stop a projectile.

But, due to tumbling and fragmentation the .223 will penetrate less than buckshot and 9mm will.

Always know what is beyond your target, but don't assume that just because it is a shotgun that it will not penetrate further than anything else. Which is why some are suggesting going to go to bird shot for your HD loads rather buck shot so as to minimize the amount of penetration through walls and such that may be beyond your target if the shotgun is what you will be using.

According to boxotruth, you are wrong.


And if you want to defend yourself with birdshot, then be my guest. It will still penetrate at least one wall of sheet rock, and is highly unlikely to STOP a bad guy.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
My big concern with the shotgun is the lack of penetration through body armor. Its very easy to get body armor for 50-$120.00 these days.
 

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A shotgun at 5-10 feet still requires proper aim. The pattern will have just started spreading at that distance so it won't really be any easier to hit with than a rifle. As far as penetration goes in a given caliber or gauge the bigger/heavier projectile will penetrate further as a general rule.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I read an article on an NYC cop who poped a guy that was charging them with a knife. They hit him three times in the chest and it did not phase him since he had a stolen vest on (harder to obtain them at the time). He had broken ribs later and other internal injuries but the round did not penetrate his vest. I guess the fourth round hit his head. But either way a slug will never go through a vest because of the mass. I think a low recoil rifle with 20-40 rounds of armor penetration is much better for me. Its going through the wall either way b.c im either using 00 buch 3 inch or a rifle. I did some research and it seems like the ebay vests are finding their way to criminals.

On the other hand I found a guy who was shot in the 70's and the slug blew his spine out of his torso. I think back in the day when body armor was not as easy or cheap to get a shotgun was the thing. Not so sure about today. esentially debating the usefullness of a benelli m4 over my ak which has a 40 round mag...
 

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Use a shotgun deverter, if you can find one. They spread out the shot horizontally.
 

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Short answer, no, the pattern is about fist size.

The main advantage of a shotgun is the shorter danger zone, rifle rounds are like the Energizer Bunny, they keep going, and going, and going.

That and the damage from a shotgun is pretty severe at close range.
Excellent clarification. A lot of folks think that one shot from a 16" barrel shotgun will take out a dozen zombies standing eight feet away. ;)
 
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