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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a doctor and a researcher. I tend to approach things from a very factual attitude. I’m not criticizing people who say they don’t like Glocks because they don’t fit their hand because that’s important. But, Glock seems to have the best dimensions to capacity ratio’s of anyone or people don’t generally outdo them in that department. They also seem to have drawn a line that they will not cross pertaining to minimum barrel lengths. My research shows that if anything needs to be long it’s the barrel. I appreciate Glock for doing that. That having been said, how did Sig outdo them in this category with the P365? It is a physical science principle that bullets occupy space. You can’t do what is physically impossible. I am strongly suspecting,and when you look at the second video, it appears that the handle of the pistol is about the same dimension in width ( at about 30% down the grip ) as a G 26. That would explain how they can get a double stack magazine the size of a G 26 in there. Otherwise, it’s not possible because of physics. If you measure the slide on the video when they show you the night sights from the back then measure the grip width, if you assume the slide with that 1 inch as they say, and use math and a caliper to measure the grip width it appears to be in the approximately 1.16 inches area. May continue to get wider below what we can see. And, that would make a nice comfortable round grip to fit your hand. G 26 is 1.18. So that would make this gun a shorter barrel G 26 frame with a G 43 upper . What do you think?
 

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You can’t do what is physically impossible.
I think the magic happens not because the P365 grip is wide, but because the mag is narrow at the top and wider down below for more capacity. Contrast that with the 43 mag that is skinny throughout its length. I do not think the P365 grip is as fat as the porky 26. But we shall soon see.

The P365’s patent-pending, narrow-neck, modified double-stack magazine holds 10 rounds in both the flush-fit and extended versions, plus one in the chamber, for a full capacity of 11 rounds – nearly a 50 percent capacity increase over pistols in its class.


https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/sig-sauer-introduces-p365/
 

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I am a doctor and a researcher. I tend to approach things from a very factual attitude. I’m not criticizing people who say they don’t like Glocks because they don’t fit their hand because that’s important. But, Glock seems to have the best dimensions to capacity ratio’s of anyone or people don’t generally outdo them in that department. They also seem to have drawn a line that they will not cross pertaining to minimum barrel lengths. My research shows that if anything needs to be long it’s the barrel. I appreciate Glock for doing that. That having been said, how did Sig outdo them in this category with the P365? It is a physical science principle that bullets occupy space. You can’t do what is physically impossible. I am strongly suspecting,and when you look at the second video, it appears that the handle of the pistol is about the same dimension in width ( at about 30% down the grip ) as a G 26. That would explain how they can get a double stack magazine the size of a G 26 in there. Otherwise, it’s not possible because of physics. If you measure the slide on the video when they show you the night sights from the back then measure the grip width, if you assume the slide with that 1 inch as they say, and use math and a caliper to measure the grip width it appears to be in the approximately 1.16 inches area. May continue to get wider below what we can see. And, that would make a nice comfortable round grip to fit your hand. G 26 is 1.18. So that would make this gun a shorter barrel G 26 frame with a G 43 upper . What do you think?
I frankly don't think space management has anything to do with physics, but I am not a doctor, so I will take your word for that.

As far as barrel length, it does have a direct impact on bullet velocity in most cases (a lot depends on the burn rate of powder and the projectile in question). In the case of 9mm, most factory SD loads come with a fairly slow powder, so barrel length will have a significant effect on velocity attained. That I think does pertain to physics, again, in my less that doctoral level of understanding.

I think the bottom line, as it pertains to barrel length and terminal effects, is enough is a hard thing to quantify. For some, enough is nothing less than a .357 SIG or 10mm handgun, others will find a 380 mouse gun adding enough comfort to their carry calculus.

Like the question of actual grip width versus speculation based on pictures that can be very deceiving, terminal performance videos in so-called "ballistic gel" will likely be all the rage soon enough for the P365. My guess is a lot of people are going to think its performance is dandy.
 

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Plus, “double stack” doesn’t mean the rounds have to be a side-by-side column. The two stacks are staggered and interdigitated.

Could be done with thinner walled frame and magazine.

Often times, people / technology gets in a rut until a different idea comes along (“design a handgun around a magazine rather than design a handgun assuming standard magazines”).

Regardless of whether the P365 winds up being hateful to shoot, this kind of magazine is revolutionary and there will be more offerings in the future. Kind of like the Maxim 9 integrally suppressed pistol, the first iteration may be meh... but the idea is solid.

And to WeeWilly’s point, the 3.1 inch barrel will likely work fine for 9mm. I’ve velocity and gel tested the PM9 (3”), Sig P938 (3”), Kimber Micro 9 (3.1”) and G43/26 (3.4”). They do fine, especially with +P ammo.
 

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The Glock is 1.18 at the slide, not the dust cover or grip.

I can't count how many articles and posts I've seen stating the Glock is only 1.18 wide while brand x is 1.35, 1.4 or whatever. Look into it on brand x website and their width is an over all width. Glock has been very successful in convincing people their guns are somehow magically and significantly slimmer than their competition.
 

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I'm thinking I should look into that rocket surgery program with a dissertation on drop testing.

Kidding aside, this new Sig looks interesting. I look forward to seeing how it passes the gauntlet.
 

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The publicized dimensions do seem peculiar. How can a small gun this size hold a ten round mag that’s flush? If they are accurate then this gun could be CC perfection. The G26 may finally have a worthy competitor. We’ll see.
 

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Sig has a patent on the new magazine. I think you'll find a new style spring that compresses very small.
If it is a leaf spring like setup (i.e. MagGuts +1 for the G43), it sounds like bad news for one of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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The Glock is 1.18 at the slide, not the dust cover or grip.

I can't count how many articles and posts I've seen stating the Glock is only 1.18 wide while brand x is 1.35, 1.4 or whatever. Look into it on brand x website and their width is an over all width. Glock has been very successful in convincing people their guns are somehow magically and significantly slimmer than their competition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I frankly don't think space management has anything to do with physics, but I am not a doctor, so I will take your word for that.

As far as barrel length, it does have a direct impact on bullet velocity in most cases (a lot depends on the burn rate of powder and the projectile in question). In the case of 9mm, most factory SD loads come with a fairly slow powder, so barrel length will have a significant effect on velocity attained. That I think does pertain to physics, again, in my less that doctoral level of understanding.

I think the bottom line, as it pertains to barrel length and terminal effects, is enough is a hard thing to quantify. For some, enough is nothing less than a .357 SIG or 10mm handgun, others will find a 380 mouse gun adding enough comfort to their carry calculus.

Like the question of actual grip width versus speculation based on pictures that can be very deceiving, terminal performance videos in so-called "ballistic gel" will likely be all the rage soon enough for the P365. My guess is a lot of people are going to think its performance is dandy.
I apologize for the doctor thing. What I meant was I am detail oriented and my wife calls me a pain in the but because of that. The physics comment also was not meant to be a slam or I am better than you, because I am not, it was simply an observation that bullets need space within the handle of the gun and I cannot figure out where there is waisted space in a Glock that somehow Sig found and put bullets in it. As someone else said it must be an engineering trick. All double stack mags neck down into a single stack as they feed into the gun. I am anxiously waiting to see more on this and actual hands on tests.
 

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I am a doctor and a researcher. I tend to approach things from a very factual attitude. I’m not criticizing people who say they don’t like Glocks because they don’t fit their hand because that’s important. But, Glock seems to have the best dimensions to capacity ratio’s of anyone or people don’t generally outdo them in that department. They also seem to have drawn a line that they will not cross pertaining to minimum barrel lengths. My research shows that if anything needs to be long it’s the barrel. I appreciate Glock for doing that. That having been said, how did Sig outdo them in this category with the P365? It is a physical science principle that bullets occupy space. You can’t do what is physically impossible. I am strongly suspecting,and when you look at the second video, it appears that the handle of the pistol is about the same dimension in width ( at about 30% down the grip ) as a G 26. That would explain how they can get a double stack magazine the size of a G 26 in there. Otherwise, it’s not possible because of physics. If you measure the slide on the video when they show you the night sights from the back then measure the grip width, if you assume the slide with that 1 inch as they say, and use math and a caliper to measure the grip width it appears to be in the approximately 1.16 inches area. May continue to get wider below what we can see. And, that would make a nice comfortable round grip to fit your hand. G 26 is 1.18. So that would make this gun a shorter barrel G 26 frame with a G 43 upper . What do you think?
The more important question is whether anyone besides SIG Sauer has drop tested the P365. If SIG claims to have done so, I don’t believe them.
 

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I apologize for the doctor thing. What I meant was I am detail oriented and my wife calls me a pain in the but because of that. The physics comment also was not meant to be a slam or I am better than you, because I am not, it was simply an observation that bullets need space within the handle of the gun and I cannot figure out where there is waisted space in a Glock that somehow Sig found and put bullets in it. As someone else said it must be an engineering trick. All double stack mags neck down into a single stack as they feed into the gun. I am anxiously waiting to see more on this and actual hands on tests.
No apology required, my wife says the same thing about me, likely worse. :)

I agree that it will be a neat trick if they can actually pull it off. I do know there is a fair amount of free space in the Glock design, MagGuts gets an extra round the the G43 magazine with a leaf spring. I also know Glock tends to be pretty conservative in their design approach (kind of like being rich, if you play your cards right, you don;t need to get rich twice), so maybe SIG pushed the envelope on grip materials, spring tech, etc.

I will be honest, I love my G43 for what it is, but a little thicker grip wouldn't disqualify it in my book. My G43 was a challenge to get right grip wise. When I pick up my G26, I shoot it like Wyatt Erp, I never felt that way about my G43 (and really don't now, but the G43 is good enough).

PS - On all this drop safety debate; for my account, I could care less. If it was discovered one of the Glocks I carry was not drop safe, it wouldn't change a thing with how I use it.
 
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