Oregon Conservatives Seek to SECEDE to Idaho While Virginia Secession Talks ESCALATE

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by DonGlock26, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    With respect, that's a selfish and temporary solution.

    It ignores the public good.

    It does nothing to stem the plague tide that will soon enough take over every state unless we unite in support of shared goals and take a stand against erosion of constitutional law.

    In the 7000 year history of human government, we founded the first ever constitutional democratic republic only 232 years ago. We were the first human civilization to legislate equality for all humans. Only 55 years ago.

    Lawful societal protection of freedom and rights and equality is new and fragile. Liberal democracy (the formal definition of such) is new and fragile. Less than half of the world's population today lives in a free society, and net indicators of democracy worldwide have declined for the last 15 years in a row.

    Surrendering liberty by running away from oppression rather than standing against oppression may be a dereliction of our duty to mankind.

    That said my friend, I live in Oregon and may be forced soon to move back to Wyoming.

    Dilemma for us all.
     
  2. BBMW

    BBMW

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    Anyone who wants to "secede" from one state to another, can do so fairly quickly and easily (well, depending on personal issues.) It's called moving.
     

  3. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    In all seriousness, I agree with JArthurD's 1st paragraph, but I submit that he weakens his position somewhat by dismissing secession at the same time that he indirectly endorses civil war.

    Neither seem likely, but if one must endorse one or the other, it seems that legitimate attempts to halt erosion of the rule of law by petitioning for secession are preferable to considering civil war.

    My personal theory is that leftists enjoy politics and often have significant time to devote to it, whereas many moderates and conservatives are not only more inclined to apathy, but also have less discretionary time.

    I believe public policy is controlled by a small political class: a political minority of engaged activist citizens, party regulars, and self-serving politicians, all bolstered by our failed press and our politicized judiciary.

    I believe rational moderates and conservatives easily outnumber these folks, but we rarely put aside minor differences to unite in superior numbers to enforce our political will.

    Voting every 2 years is not enough, especially when the names on our ballots are pre-selected by our unopposed political class.

    Our voice is not heard. We need to unite and organize and make it heard.
     
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  4. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    See post #21.

    The cancer of leftism will not self-resolve. Good people have to unite and propagate a narrative of truth and reason to oppose the current narrative of lies and irrational emotional response.
     
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  5. Intolerant

    Intolerant

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    No other state has tried as hard, or for as long as we have, in upstate NY, to break away from NYC. It takes the congress to make that happen. And you see how they are working right now. Pfffff, forget it! No states are going to be split up. After the democrats take power again in this country, and they will (due to indoctrinated kids), you`ll have a civil war on your hands to deal with.
     
  6. Deltic

    Deltic

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  7. BBMW

    BBMW

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    Once a state gets past a demographic tipping point, there's not too much conservatives can do. VA is right at the tipping point. WA is likely well past it. A few thousand more libs moving to VA will likely push it past it also.

    I live in NY. There's nothing that conservatives can do to control anything at the state level. The choice is to put either put up with it or leave.

     
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  8. Intolerant

    Intolerant

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    You nailed it spot on correct!
     
  9. Intolerant

    Intolerant

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  10. seamaster

    seamaster

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    Fantasy, never going to happen. Stop wasting time and energy on it!
     
  11. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    I don't really agree with you guys (BBMW and Intolerant). For me, your outlook is fatalistic and it ignores the common values shared by many Americans.

    According to Fiorina and Pew, the American people are not divided and polarized, but the active political class is, and that political class is in control of public policy because the people allow themselves to be sorted each election into one of the polarized extremes. We don't agree with much of what our candidate stands for, but we vote for her or him anyway because what other choice is there? We aren't polarized and divided, but we get sorted that way each election.
    https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/fiorina_finalfile_0.pdf
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/upshot/many-americans-not-polarized.html

    When you vote, you choose one of the names available on the ballot. If the parties retain influence over which names appear on ballots or receive the most party support, and the press controls which names receive the most press, then your viable choices are controlled by the parties and press, which both are part of the active political class. Hence that feeling of often having to choose between the lesser of two evils, and being sorted into either extreme.

    Some argue that political parties are losing influence as grassroots organizations gain an ability to field and promote candidates. I agree, but it doesn't happen often enough.

    We need more grassroots action from typically inactive Americans, so that we have better choices on our ballots, so that we regain our intended control of our elected officials.

    And we need other things, like eliminating gerrymandering by turning control of districting over to 200-member bi-partisan citizen panels that are mandated to achieve non-partisan districting, and eliminating party control over fielded candidates by implementing open blanket primary elections, etc.

    All of these things are easily achievable by people who are willing to unite in large numbers and spend a few hours each year contributing to improved methods for self-governance.

    People say it can't be done.

    AARP has 35 million members.

    America has 70 million gun owners? If half joined a single organization, irrational gun-control policy would vanish overnight. Repeal of ineffective and unconstitutional laws would be achievable. Improved management of crime and mental illness would be feasible. Depoliticization of the judiciary would be achievable.

    The problem is how to get tens of millions of gun owners to agree on anything.
    We prefer to complain, and not unite.
    Apparently we prefer to lose.
     
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  12. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    Also, the only way to defeat a popular narrative of lies is to engage in an effort of education and advocacy for truth.

    Our free press has failed. Instead of promoting truth, it pursues an irrational political agenda.

    Our only choices are to surrender the information field, or push back with our own organized programs for education and advocacy.

    This is one of NRA's and ILA's strengths. They publish evidence-based articles that contain simple truths. If they had 20 million members instead of 4.5, we'd probably be living in a different world.

    IMO.

    Dang, it's late!
     
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  13. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    28 posts since 2012.....where have you been, DS? I find your thinking provocative.....engage us here a little more often.......:cheers:
     
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  14. NAZG26

    NAZG26 Lost in transit

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    So is Roosevelt but we are still feeling the pain of his policies today.
     
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  15. Intolerant

    Intolerant

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    I`m sorry, but, you`re living in fantasy land. Maybe back in the 40`s or 50`s, i could have believed you a little bit. Have you ever lived in NY? I have, for almost 70yrs. Apparently, you haven`t a clue what its like here. We will never be able to flip NY to republican. You cant reason with liberals. And they out number us more than you even know.

    Are you aware of all the indoctrinated kids that will eligible to vote in 2024, then more ill voters after that election cycle? The cities have been taken over by liberal cancer many years ago. Its just a matter of time and this country WILL BE flipped over to socialism. I am at the age where i`m seeing it coming, and for a very long time, but i`ll never live long enough to see it fixed.

    Common values are gone. These kids want FREEBIES, they think everybody older than them owes them something. There again, common values are gone, when you have parents that dont teach their children common values, their kids wont have any. (and its certainly NOT taught in school, either) Then those children grow up and have (even dumber) kids. Now add in all the parachute parents... those are the parents that ignore their kids until its too late, and then they drop in after the fact. We have a parenting problem in this country. Dumb people being allowed to breed, being allowed to vote. Do you see the pattern here yet? God and the constitution are being destroyed at a faster pace than we can even think about. At the rate we`re going, we are already over the cliff. We`re well on our way to the crash site. Look at this younger generation... teachers are telling these kids to take over...they dont teach history, they want it destroyed!

    Do the REALISTIC math... 330+ million people in this country... 70- million gun owners. And more and more stupidity is being bred everyday. You are just counting people, and not counting "their thinking" into the equation. The real explanation will be explained in the next paragraph.

    You need a 51/50 vote in the country to stop the poisonous society "over night" ("over night" were your words). Now take some of those 70 million gun owners, how many dont vote, how many are democrat, how many are liberals, how many are even against Trump that own guns, just that we see here just in GT alone. Now we throw in all the billionaires, buying votes, paying off politicians with back door money, we`ve got a huge problem, and we cant fix it!

    Gun owners sat on their duff`s for far to long, thinking the second amendment would always protect them...people couldnt have been more wrong! There are even a few gun owners that are voting for more gun laws. Remember what Bill Ruger said? How about what spring field did. Even smith&wesson for instance. Add those figures into the equation.

    Yeah, i dont see your math adding up to save the gun owners in this country. Gun owners are out purely out numbered. And that is the REAL facts of it. War is inevitable. Right now we`re in the middle of a cold war right here on our own soil. It wont be to far out before the lid gets blown off inside our country. And then that is when we will be attacked. Always remember what a russian once said, "we cant beat you, so we`ll rot you from within". And this country, AND its values rotted. Look at NY, letting criminals just walk. You can read about just about every day in the news.

    What is needed, is to make people get on one side, or get on the other. And that, is what we`re finally seeing, somewhat, but we`re STILL out numbered. The problem with it is, there arent nearly enough gun owners that will actually come out to fight, and that number is shrinking everyday. Most will lay down and comply. They dont want to upset their careers, or their football party`s, their lazy life style.

    Reality... go getcha some!
     
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  16. Intolerant

    Intolerant

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  17. Gokyo

    Gokyo

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    I seriously doubt you live in Seattle. If you did your view might be different.

    The Libs in Seattle are rabid socialist with no regard for American core values.
     
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  18. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    Thanks. :cheers:

    Maybe I should try for shorter posts, but I appreciate the overture! :D
     
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  19. DSinOR

    DSinOR

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    My comments about the American People not actually being polarized were not based on anecdote or conjecture or purely personal opinion. I gave quality citations.

    Fiorina suggests two reasons why American society feels so divided or polarized:
    1 - we allow ourselves to be sorted that way every time we go to the ballot box.
    2 - the press makes more money by portraying us as divided and by feeding the anger of uninformed squabblers than it would make by publishing an accurate portrayal of the daily lives and reality of the vast majority of Americans.

    To that, I would add that American journalism has been infected with the same cancer that is present in University staff and most government employees: leftism.

    ***

    The policies of the left have run out of time. Government spending and public debt surpassed sustainable levels at least 10 years ago. PERS at every level of government is insolvent and will get worse every year.

    A confrontation with policy failure is now unavoidable and imminent.

    The great masses will soon receive a financial education that will overshadow everything they thought they knew or believed.

    Intolerant asks why I could ever believe that the people could again unite in support of rational political goals. Simple answer: the end of the road is here. There is nowhere else to kick the can. The confrontation with reality is unavoidable.

    IMO - it's a "strike while the iron is hot" concept. Conservative backlash is already apparent, and will only build.

    I read a lot of American history in the last few years. I gained a huge appreciation for the strength and resilience of people who seek liberty and human rights and (eventually) equality, and who endure hardships along the way, and who never stop fighting for what they believe and know is right. So many of them said the same thing: freedom is not free, liberty requires diligence.

    I have posted on gun forums since 2002. They are all the same in one respect:
    they have many intelligent members who are mostly silent, and they all have a few members who will always argue that "It's over man, we need civil war now!"

    If you give the latter a chance to unite into a cohesive political force and pursue shared goals, they will always find a reason why your goals are wrong and why they will not unite with you.

    I'm here for the former.

    My glass is half full.

    Intolerant - yours is half empty.
    But if you are 75, you're right, you won't see the end of this anyway. There's no reason for you to wish or work for preservation of this first-ever society formed to protect human rights and freedom. So you should stay on your current path.
    I'm not going down it with you, so have fun and send postcards.
     
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  20. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    I tend to have some fairly long posts, myself......and, I suspect the longer the post, the less likely anyone will take the time to read, and contemplate what you've said.