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Open Letter Concerning GSSF/Glock

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by Dump1567, Jul 23, 2002.

  1. Dump1567

    Dump1567

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    Something I found on IPSC Digest: (I'm not the author)

    This letter concerns an incident at a Glock Sport Shooting Foundation
    (GSSF) match that occurred on June 15, 2002 at the Central Jersey Rifle
    and Pistol Club (CJRPC) in Jackson, New Jersey. I volunteered to act as
    a range officer at the match, as I had done with other previous GSSF
    matches.

    At the stage I was working, a competitor pointed his gun at me not once,
    but twice. I disqualified (DQ) him from the match, according to the
    GSSF's safety rules. Scott Gilbertson, the GSSF representative at the
    match, immediately overturned the DQ. The reason Scott gave me was
    "people were there to have fun" and it was supposed to be a "fun" match.

    On June 19, 2002, I wrote a letter, outlining what had happened, why it
    was wrong for the competitor to be allowed to continue, and how this
    was not the first time that Scott Gilbertson and other GSSF officials
    had shown this indifferent attitude toward safety. I addressed the
    letter to Paul F. Jannuzzo, Esq. who runs Glock USA, Richard Perkins the
    Glock North America Sales Manager, Stephanie Plumecocq the Editor of The
    Glock Report and GSSF Director of Media Relations and the President of
    the CJRPC. Attached to the letter were copies of the GSSF's safety
    rules and match procedures.

    A copy of the letter and its' attachments are available at:
    http://www.geocities.com/davidwiz_2000/gssf.html

    Within a week, I received a letter from CJRPC, stating that they would
    discuss the matter at their July Board meeting, and that they invited me
    to attend. I was unable to attend due to other commitments and I do not
    know the outcome of that meeting. It has been more than four weeks
    since I sent the letter. To this day, I have yet to receive any sort of
    response from anyone affiliated from Glock.

    The purpose of this letter is to let everyone in the shooting community
    know that Glock is giving lip service to safety, especially the safety
    of every competitor and volunteer who attends a GSSF match. Glock
    values "fun" over safety. If you value your safety, I would strongly
    urge you to not host, attend, compete in or volunteer for a GSSF match
    until Glock starts making needed changes within the GSSF and how the
    matches are run.


    David Wisniewski
    davidwiz@erols.com
     
  2. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

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    This is a big surprise to me. I have been shooting GSSF matches for 3 1/2 years and have seen a couple DQ's none of which were overturned. I have also seen safety stressed as 1st priority with having fun as 2nd. I was not at the match where this incident was said to have happened but I would have to see with my own eyes a safety violation this serious be passed over this lightly to believe it. I may not agree with much of Scotts thoughts but I can't imagine him letting this happen and being a part of it.

    Maybe there are some of the GSSF/GT regulars who were there and could share some light on the situation.
     

  3. ripplingh2o

    ripplingh2o

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    David,

    I applaud Glock and the GSSF for not wasting their time responding to your issue of fun vs. safety or safety vs. fun. There's no doubt that nothing they would have said or could have said would be sufficient in your mind. Rather than bashing an entire organization for the single decision of one individual (even if he was a "GSSF representative") I would recommend you just take your guns and desires to officiate and go elsewhere. Don't bash the entire crowd because of the decisions of one individual. And for goodness sake to stereotype this occurence towards the safety of all who participate is utterly ridiculous. I wish you the best but suggest you try IDPA.
     
  4. Dump1567

    Dump1567

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    Today's Topics:

    1. Elevation and temperature (whornby@telusplanet.net)
    2. Reeshoot after DQ? (Michael Chludenski)
    3. Re: Elevation and temperature (Jim Boemler)
    4. RE: Cracked Slide? (Solito, Kevin)
    5. Re: Elevation and temperature (Jeff M.)
    6. Re: WARNING - 38Super CCU (picture) (David Wisniewski)
    7. 2 Rule Questions (David Wisniewski)
    8. re: 2 Rule Questions (Bill Noyes)
    9. RE: 2 Rule Questions (Solito, Kevin)
    10. Re: IPSC GA Agenda (Jim Boemler)
    11. Re: Rules. was, IPSC GA Agenda (Jim Boemler)
    12. RE: 2 Rule Questions (Bill Noyes)
    13. Re: WARNING - 38Super CCU (picture) (Dan Z)
    14. RE: 2 Rule Questions (Solito, Kevin)
    15. RE: 2 Rule Questions (Solito, Kevin)
    16. Joe (Bill Noyes)
    17. Open Letter Concerning GSSF/Glock (David Wisniewski)
    18. Cracked Slides (Franco Resca)
    19. Re: Elevation and temperature (whornby@telusplanet.net)
    20. Re: 2 Rule Questions (Jim Boemler)
    21. Re: Minor PF loads for G35? (Jerry Davis)
     
  5. Fireglock

    Fireglock Which is worse?

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    I would like to know more. I find no safety violations acceptable at any match. One firearm related injury or death will, besides the obvious, sound the death knell of GSSF. If as mentioned a firearm was pointed anywhere but down range then a disqualification was the right thing to do.

    I won't condemn anybody but at the same time I don't think we should condemn the letter writer either. GSSF personnel are human so errors are in their make up the same as ours, but it would seem that safety violations would be treated with at least the same diligence as their scoring procedures are.

    It will be interesting to see if we hear anything from any of the other ROs at Jackson. I have brought this thread to the attention of one that I know.
     
  6. TJC

    TJC "No Compromise" Millennium Member

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    I have to say that of the numerous GSSF matches that I have attended, I have never had/seen quite that bad of a safety violation. I believe it may have occured as I have had some close ones while RO'ing. That does happen with especially the nonexperienced shooters. As an RO I always make sure to pay a little extra close attention to the nonexperienced shooters.

    BUT, Mr. Gilbertson has made more than just 1 mistake since I have known him. I don't doubt his stated reply in this case one bit.
    I also don't doubt the lack of response by Glock in this case either. It runs true to form for the GSSF organization. It is their normal way to deal with controversy.
     
  7. DEJ/FL

    DEJ/FL Millennium Member

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    I was at the Lexington 2001 match and observed a competitor DQ for the same action and Scott Gilbertson backed up the RO's decision! This is the only time I have personally observed a competitor being DQ and Scott explained why and asked the shooter if he attended the safety briefing or watched the video presentation to which he said NO!
    Not bashing anyone, just a personal observation!
    Dan:cool:
     
  8. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

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    Slight lack of info here. First did he inform the shooter after the first time to watch his/her muzzle? Was gun POINTED at him or was he close to area that got swept when new shooter was racking the slide? I have seen many new folks point gun to left and push hands together to rack slide.
    IF it was a new shooter he should have stopped him/her and with a unloaded gun show them how to load/shoot/unload safely. If they do it again or are just careless DQ them ASAP
     
  9. Flexmoney

    Flexmoney

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    I followed the link in the above post...there is more detailed information.


    I find it strange that this safety violation is getting so little attention.

    ;P
     
  10. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    The incident was reported to GSSF in Smyrna just after it happened, and again after this thread was opened. GSSF has been made aware of the situation.
     
  11. Fireglock

    Fireglock Which is worse?

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    I have corresponded with my friend who RO'd at Jackson. Nothing was brought up about this at the Sunday meal and get together and he heard nothing about it at the range.
     
  12. TJC

    TJC "No Compromise" Millennium Member

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    Just read the attachment above.;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f
    Gotta love it when a man is right.;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f ;f
     
  13. murph2127

    murph2127

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    FWIW, you got only the RO's opinion of what happened.

    By funny happenstance, I ended up talking to the MD of that match.
    He filled in several details that were important to the overturning of the DQ. From what I understand, he will shortly be posting a response to all this.


    Ted
     
  14. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

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    I would definitely like to hear the REST of the story. I read the letter on the link and I find it hard to believe that the situation was the cut and dried. My 3 1/2 years of GSSF experience has shown that the GSSF Staff has been very safety conscious with Safety 1st and Having Fun 2nd. Anytime you have a large group of shooting competetors with varying amounts of experience there will be occassional range violations I don't care WHO is running the match but all in all I feel much safer with GSSF than most other matches.
     
  15. murph2127

    murph2127

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    Not sure about that though. Each sport has it's various plusses/minuses safetywise. I've worked a lot of different matches, and some of the worst gunhandling (and best) I've seen was at the GSSF matches. The new shooters intro videotape for GSSF should be replaced with something more hands on, like USPSA or most IDPA clubs do.

    Ted
     
  16. Patricia

    Patricia Wild at heart CLM Millennium Member

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    I have no arguement that safety should be a number one priority in all the shooting sports. However, generalizations of any kind bug me. This person choose to judge an entire organization and each and every match that they host because of one specific incident. I do believe that the safety record at GSSF matches is excellent. It think it is a great disservice to GSSF and all its competitors to make such a blanket statement.
     
  17. mike from philly

    mike from philly

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    As a newbie, I'm always gratful to the "slack" given to me by the RO's. Usually the RO's will either correct me during a run or tell me later. I've done stupid stuff like "finger on the trigger while
    reloading", "finger on trigger running", "loading prior to being instructed too" (although I do swear I was told to load), etc. The gentle explanation of what I did wrong does sink in without spoiling
    the experience. If I was DQ'd just as I'm getting into the sport, I would probally have given it up and not return. Then, I wouldn't learn the important safety lessons that come with competing over time.

    I'll also throw three thoughts into the blender:

    1) To the newbie, most of the commands are confusing and often hard to hear and understand. So that is maybe why the offense was done twice.

    2) RO's should always be in a position to physically control the shooter. This is easy at GSSF since we stand still. USPSA its alot more difficult. If someone pointed a gun at me once, I would be on guard to prevent it again.

    3) For most, a GSSF match is thier one chance per year to shoot a match and do "safe gun handling". The benefit to our shooting community of these brief encounters with safety is a tremendous benefit and not something to be tossed casually tossed aside.
     
  18. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

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    murph2127;
    I shoot IPSC and IDPA both at sanctioned and nonsanctiond matches. The IPSC matches I have shot gives a good safety brief at each match however the IDPA Sanctioned match I shot gave very little briefing at all. One of the stages required us to draw from a holster weak hand only and place the gun between our knees and then turn it around with weak hand only and shoot.(Not too safe even for an experienced shooter and there were some very new shooters there.)

    So my statement stays the same: Any match can and sometimes will have range violations but I believe GSSF Matches speaks for themselves and I still feel it is one of the safest shooting venues around.
     
  19. Flexmoney

    Flexmoney

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    Well, after reading the RO's letter...it appears that the shooter was not given the commands to handle the gun. The shooter did handle the gun, and the gun was pointed at the RO, who was down-range.

    I am curious to hear what the "other side" of the story is. If the above stands as fact, then the shooter should (obviously) have been DQ'ed. Right?
     
  20. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

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    Flexmoney;
    I agree with you however I don't just assume that hearing only one side of the story is all there is. As you say "IF" all the facts are as simple, cut and dried as the letter says then a DQ is the only option however the key word here is "IF" but so far we have only heard one side.