Open Carry Movement in California

Discussion in 'California Glockers' started by crazyrec12, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. crazyrec12

    crazyrec12 cornbread

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    Noticed this in the news today...
    http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_142411...e=most_emailed

    and I was unaware of this and thought everyone else might not know about it. And for those in the know already, is there anything that they left out as far as restrictions?
    One more thing so does this apply to just walking around or could I go jump in the car with it holstered (assuming I stay away from school zones)
    or would it then be considered concealed?

    Thanks for the help.



    David LaTour rolled out of bed on a recent Saturday morning and prepared for a leisurely lunch: Wallet, check. Car keys, check. Springfield XD 9 mm pistol and ammunition, check.
    Springfield XD 9 mm pistol and ammunition?
    The Hayward resident is a member of an organization slowly gaining membership in the Bay Area. Open Carry aims to make it possible for Americans in every state to legally carry loaded guns in public. The loosely organized Bay Area chapter is igniting powerful feelings among law enforcement agencies, gun control advocates and ordinary residents.
    "I do it to defend myself and my rights. Carrying guns can prevent burglaries and assaults," LaTour said.
    The San Jose State engineering student meets in public places with fellow members of the group, who all display holstered unloaded pistols.
    Open Carry advocates rely on a section in the California Penal Code that prohibits concealed weapons. It states that "guns carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed." It is legal to do so as long as the group or individual is 1,000 feet away from a K-12 school.
    "I have a right to bear arms under the Constitution," LaTour said as he settled into a chair at Peet's Coffee & Tea near Whole Foods in San Ramon with his unloaded Springfield in a holster on one hip and ammo on the other. Five other armed Bay Area Open Carry members and other unarmed friends joined him.
    'Makes me nervous'
    Many Peet's patrons clearly were disturbed when the Open Carry group walked in.
    "I'm scared. I'm getting out of here," said Steve Atkinson, a Pleasanton resident who was joined by his wife, Petra, as he sipped a cappuccino. "They say they want to make a statement. What's wrong with a T-shirt?" he asked.
    "It makes me nervous big time," added San Ramon resident Azadeh Shenas. "What if there's a car crash, people are arguing and one shoots the other?"
    Not everyone was upset. Ten-year-old Lottie Goddard walked up to the group with the encouragement of her father, Andy, and mother, Sammy.
    "My Uncle Ray is going to teach me to shoot a gun for my 11th birthday," she declared.
    The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms. However, California's constitution does not, and the state has some of the tightest gun restrictions in the country. It is against the law to openly carry a loaded gun in public, and it is difficult to get a permit to carry a concealed firearm in many counties.
    "Often, the police don't realize it's our legal right to openly carry an unloaded gun in California," said Open Carry member Jon Schwartz, of Livermore, at the recent coffee klatch.
    Dangers described
    While law enforcement agencies recognize that right, they still caution against the dangers of its practice, San Mateo County Sheriff's Lt. Ray Lunny said.
    "Open carry advocates create a potentially very dangerous situation," he said. "When police are called to a 'man with a gun' call, they typically are responding to a situation about which they have few details other than that one or more people are present at a location and are armed. Officers have no idea that these people may simply be 'exercising their rights.'
    "Should the gun-carrying person "... move in a way that could be construed as threatening, the police are forced to respond in kind for their own protection. It's well and good in hindsight to say the gun carrier was simply 'exercising their rights,' but the result could be deadly," Lunny said.
    "I think that's a little bit over the top," said Walter Stanley, an Open Carry member from Livermore who carries a Springfield XD.
    Law enforcement officials should have policies on "man with a gun" calls as to whether it is a dangerous situation such as a man brandishing a gun in an argument or a man who is simply carrying a gun, he said.
    A San Mateo County prosecutor said he was assigned to handle the open carry issue when the gatherings began popping up in the Bay Area after a spurt of popularity in Southern California.
    "It certainly seems that interest in this kind of thing is higher in the last year or two," San Mateo County assistant district attorney Morley Pitt said.
    The gatherings have not resulted in any criminal charges in San Mateo or Alameda counties.
    However, residents were concerned enough to call the police when Stanley wore an unloaded gun to a Livermore interview with the media earlier this month. Four Livermore police officers responded, one with rifle drawn, and two officers ordered Stanley up against a wall with his hands over his head. After checking his weapon and finding it unloaded, the officers left.
    In Santa Clara County, 74-year-old Sherman "Tony" Fontano was charged with a misdemeanor for carrying an unloaded gun within 1,000 feet of a school in December, according to Nick Muyo of the District Attorney's Office.
    The San Jose resident told Bay Area News Group that he did so after hearing about the Open Carry movement and getting assurance from police that he could legally carry an unloaded gun. Fontano, who is scheduled to be arraigned today, said police did not warn him about the school restriction.
    Worried about crime
    The group's tactics could lead to problems in a higher crime environment, said Mike Sobek, a police officer and secretary of the statewide Peace Officers Research Association of California.
    "Tell (Open Carry members) to walk down International Boulevard and 72nd Avenue (in Oakland) and tell (people there) how normal it is to walk with a gun in open view. I don't think that would work. This is not 1892. It's not the wild, wild West any more," he said.
    Sharing Sobek's concern was Contra Costa County prosecutor Bruce Flynn. "I don't have any objection to people owning guns. I'm just a little concerned about people open carrying them in public, just because these things can be misread so easily."
    On the contrary, Stanley said. When everyone carries a gun, misreading situations is less likely, he thinks.
    "We want not just police and criminals to be carrying guns, but law-abiding citizens as well. "... An armed society is a polite society," he said.
    Should Open Carry succeed in its campaign to legalize publicly carrying loaded guns in California, the effect "is not likely to be either nirvana or the apocalypse," said Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor and author of books on constitutional law.
    Concealed weapons laws vary widely across the country. In the 1980s, about nine states issued concealed weapons licenses to individuals who passed a test. That number has grown to about 40 states, but massive violence has not resulted, he said.
    'Just aren't trained'
    Griffin Dix, a gun safety advocate who is not opposed to gun ownership, questioned the wisdom of carrying weapons in public.
    He has been an advocate for gun safety ever since 1994, when his 15-year-old son was killed by a friend who was playing with a gun — not knowing a bullet remained in the chamber.
    The Kensington resident is president of the Alameda County chapter of the Brady Campaign, an organization fighting to reduce gun violence.
    "The open carry people talk about their rights, and I don't want to take away their rights," Dix said. "But they just aren't trained to have a gun in public the way police are. Police get that training several times a year, and you still see tragic deaths happen because they're armed in public. I don't want to take anyone's guns away, but people should leave them at home."
    Three local chapters of the Brady Campaign wrote to shop owners and several Bay Area mayors after a Livermore open carry event. They argued that shop owners have property rights and an obligation to protect the safety of their customers by prohibiting guns on their premises.
    In early January, after an Open Carry event in Livermore, organizers announced another would be held Feb. 6 at the California Pizza Kitchen in Walnut Creek.
    The company said the group was not welcome.
    "California Pizza Kitchen does not allow guests other than uniformed officers to display firearms in our restaurants," a company representative told Bay Area News Group.
    "We're sorry to hear that (California Pizza Kitchen) doesn't want us to show up with firearms, but at the same time we respect property rights," Stanley said. "We would not want to make them or their customers uncomfortable, so we will take our firearms and business elsewhere."
    Reach Janis Mara at jmara@bayareanewsgroup.com. Reach Sean Maher at smaher@bayareanewsgroup.com



    WHAT'S LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA
    Most adults can openly carry an unloaded handgun legally in California, as proponents of the open carry movement argue.
    The California Penal Code makes it a crime to carry a concealed weapon without a county-issued license, but it also says that firearms "carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed."
    In most cases, though, it is a crime to carry a loaded gun in a public place. In addition, people who reasonably think there is an immediate, grave danger to themselves or others, and that carrying the weapon can avert harm, may be allowed to carry the gun from the time law enforcement officials are called until they arrive.
    A person may have ammunition in a pocket away from the gun, and may even carry a speed loader, but carrying both ammunition and a gun is a crime if the two have direct contact.
    Violent felons and most of those on parole or probation may not possess firearms in any circumstance.
    Although a law enforcement officer who sees someone openly carrying a gun may stop that person to make sure the weapon is unloaded, the officer's rights to investigate further become problematic, San Mateo County assistant district attorney Morley Pitt said.
    "If the gun's not loaded, you can't make the person carrying it show you any ID, so there's no way of knowing if this person might be on probation or parole, or if they have warrants out on them. You can't check the serial number of the gun, so you don't know if it's been stolen," he said.
    It is illegal to possess guns of any sort within 1,000 feet of any public or private school from kindergarten through high school, under the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995. Unloaded firearms may not be carried at government meetings that are public.
    A person may keep a gun locked in the trunk of a vehicle and can arm himself if he thinks he is in grave danger from a person against whom he has a restraining order.
    Bay Area organization Open Carry aims to make it possible for Americans in every state to legally carry loaded guns in public.
     
  2. socalserf

    socalserf

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  3. zeppe807

    zeppe807 Always Prepared

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    Just saw that there was an open carry in the Bay area yesterday too.

    It was on ABC channel 7 news at 9:30am.




    At lease it was good news!


    Joe
     
  4. Angel King

    Angel King

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    Be prepared to be proned out at GP and detained until it can be determined your weapon is unloaded and you're not a felon/parolee/terrorist/criminal intentions etc.... and dusted off with a have a nice day.
     
  5. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    It's a horrendous shame that an officer will talk like that. What the hell does "shall not be infringed" mean?

    For 61 years, I was a Virginian. Any time I wanted to open carry a LOADED sidearm, I was not accosted by a power-hungry egomaniac.

    The term "Kommiefornia" is used with just cause.

    Free country, hell.
     
  6. Angel King

    Angel King

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    Well sorry to offend you GP, but I didn't write the rule book. But that is, like it or not, exactly what will happen in Kalifornia if the police get a call regarding a man with a gun.

    We live in one country, but each state might as well be on a different planet. Different social norms and attitudes.
     
  7. socalserf

    socalserf

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    "I didn't cause tyrany, I just enforce it."
     
  8. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    Sound like, thankfully, member PAHLAVAN was not there...

    http://www.examiner.com/x-30407-LA-...al-Park-Service-admits-to-stopping-gun-owners

    National Park Service admits to stopping gun owners

    Now it's Jerry Brown's turn to answer some questions. I submitted the following at 12:16 am March 4, 2010 to the Office of the Attorney General,

    Bureau of Firearms and via the General Comment / Question Form. I have asked the National Park Service substantially similar questions but they have not replied to my inquiry.

    {Begin text to AG}

    I am a reporter and would like the Office of the Attorney General to answer the following questions:

    Is it the position of the Attorney General that National Park Service Police officers can lawfully enforce California law, specifically California Penal Code 12031(e), and if so are they also authorized to make an arrest pursuant to section 12031 of the California Penal Code?


    Is it the position of the Attorney General that a handgun, openly carried in a belt holster must be unloaded when carried within a National Park or be arrested? If so, how is this lawful under SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME law?


    Is it the position of the Attorney General that is in unlawful to discharge a firearm in self defense pursuant to SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME law? If not, how is it lawful for any police officer to conduct an inspection stop for the purpose of verifying an openly carried handgun is unloaded?


    On May 3rd, 2010 Sgt Todd Roth of the National Park Service filed an incident report which was published online by the National Park Service where he states the following:

    The following was published online at www.nps.gov/morningreport


    Source: The National Park Service "The Morning Report"
    Wednesday, March 03, 2010
    INCIDENTS
    Golden Gate National Recreation Area (CA)
    Open Carry Gun Enthusiasts Demonstrate In Park

    An unidentified open carry enthusiast group recently contacted Golden Gate’s special park uses office to discuss plans to volunteer for their own beach cleanup day on Baker Beach. They advised that during the event they intended to exercise their right to openly carry firearms, pursuant to California Penal Code 12025(f) and Public Law 111-23, Section 512, which now allow firearms in the park. Park Police and Golden Gate command staff met to organize a training and situational plan to address the possible scenarios associated with the organized demonstration. On the morning of February 27th, a joint briefing was held for assigned Park Police officers and rangers. At 11:30 a.m., a Park Police Officer reported seeing several people gathered together in the south parking lot of Baker Beach. Several members of the group displayed holstered, openly carried pistols. At the same time. a separate event was developing, as a tsunami warning was being broadcast for the bay area. The rangers who were assigned to the open carry demonstration were reassigned to the coastline areas to assist with emergency closures. Park Police officers contacted three separate groups that were actively engaged in cleaning the beach area. Several members within these groups were displaying open carry pistols. Pursuant to California Penal Code 12031(e), the weapons were only inspected to determine if they were loaded. Seven members within the groups were checked and were found to be in compliance with federal and state laws. The groups that were contacted were found to be extremely knowledgeable of the law and how it pertained to their constitutional rights. The contacts were filmed by multiple people within the groups and a local news reporter was present to document the event. No identification or further searches were conducted on any of the individuals during these brief contacts. There were no reports from the public and there was no significant impact on the park due to this specific incident. [Submitted by Sergeant Todd Roth, US ParkPolice]

    {End of text to AG}

    Jerry Brown, in his capacity as Attorney General filed a friend of the court brief asking the United States Supreme Court to incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the States. He is now running for Governor of the State of California. Elections for Governor is this state are held in off years which makes it very difficult for a Democrat to be elected to the office of Governor. Brown can not win the statewide election without carrying both the City and County of Los Angeles by a substantial margin.

    As the Attorney General for the State of California, he is the top law enforcement officer of the state.

    Let's see how well Brown does this time.
     
  9. Angel King

    Angel King

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    GP, don't vent using me as your whipping boy. There was no need to bring my name into the above article. Me and just about every other police officer in CA or the nation for that matter will always make sure the public is safe before letting an armed person just walk off without question.

    If you legally possess the firearm and it is unloaded, there will obviously be no punitive actions taken in CA. But you're wrong if you think a person can walk into a mall or some public place and specially in this time after 9-11, and not be 'cleared' before getting thier gun back and sent on their way.

    Is he a parolee/felon? is he 5150? Is he a terrorist? Can he or she legally possess a firearm?

    Public safety first as always.

    And just so you understand, the reason our guns would be drawn and no chances taken is because police officers would like to go home at night too. And if feelings have to get hurt for us to stay alive, then so be it.

    Take care.
     
  10. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    You and we all know, if he were, he would be carrying concealed.
     
  11. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14524201?nclick_check=1

    Gun-rights activists to descend on downtown Palo Alto
    By Will Oremus


    Daily News Staff Writer

    Posted: 03/05/2010 10:47:01 PM PST
    Updated: 03/05/2010 10:47:02 PM PST


    Decades ago, Palo Alto's downtown Lytton Plaza was the scene of protests by young activists testing their First Amendment rights to free expression.

    Today, a group of gun-rights advocates will exercise their Second Amendment rights by congregating in the plaza with unloaded firearms in plain view. Bay Area members of the national "open carry" movement said they chose the city in part because it is one of the few in the state that has a municipal ban on gun possession.

    Don't expect any '60s-style confrontations with authorities, however. Palo Alto officials said Friday they will not attempt to enforce the city's ordinance, since it is superseded by state law allowing people to carry guns openly as long as they're not loaded.

    "We're not going to try to fight state law on this," said Palo Alto police Lt. Sandra Brown. "We're just going to let it happen."

    The meet-up was organized by Paul Gregg, a 32-year-old systems consultant who lives and works in Palo Alto. He planned the event online via Facebook, Twitter and the discussion forum for the Web site OpenCarry.org, which has become ground zero for the national open-carry movement as it has taken off in the past five years.

    Gregg said he's hoping for turnout comparable to that of a recent open-carry event in Walnut Creek that drew close to 100 people.

    "The response has been overwhelming," Gregg said. "I have been answering e-mails and phone calls

    The event is scheduled to run from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m., with the participants meeting in the plaza and strolling into downtown shops and restaurants while wearing their weapons on their belt loops. Brown sent an e-mail to local merchants on Thursday explaining the event and the relevant laws.

    Police will have a couple of officers on hand to answer any questions and make sure things go smoothly, Brown said.

    While privately owned stores have the right to turn away customers, she said, "we don't suggest that people panic, because there hasn't been a problem" with open-carry demonstrations in other cities.

    While its firearm ban is unenforceable, the city can still enforce a clause in the ordinance that prohibits guns from being fired within city limits, Assistant City Attorney Donald Larkin said.

    Gregg said his group doesn't expect any problems.

    "We have found very little opposition from the public to lawful carry of firearms by their fellow citizens," he said in an e-mail to The Daily News. He noted that a Starbucks in Sunnyvale has become a hot spot for open-carry meet-ups after one activist called the company headquarters to confirm that it had no policy against the practice.

    "Many of the folks are very passionate about open-carry and are big tippers," he said.

    John Pierce, a gun-rights advocate from Virginia who co-founded OpenCarry.org, discussed the movement by phone while ordering parmesan-crusted chicken at a Noodles & Company restaurant in Minneapolis. He said the site has some 27,000 registered members and has spawned countless meet-ups in states across the country.

    Asked what he would tell nervous Palo Alto merchants and residents, Pierce said, "I would tell them there are no more law-abiding people out there than gun owners. The best thing to do would be to follow the Starbucks example, which is to take a neutral policy and say, 'as long as you are obeying the law I will not discriminate against you one way or the other.' "
     
  12. Angel King

    Angel King

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    A valid point when considering a parolee, but how about a person who may not legally possess that firearm due to a specific previous felony, or domestic violence or valid restraining orders. Some of these people, if they choose to open carry may not in reality be legally able to own/carry a gun any longer. The fact is, they have to be checked out....The list goes on and on.

    And most importantly, a mental case. Let me give you an example:


    I have personally been on calls where the person was carrying, not concealed. And those were definitely not open carry movement situations. One call unfortunately turned out to be a suicide by cop and he was waiting for us to get called and show up.

    In another case, one guy who could not legally possess a gun had taken his stepfather's gun to use to make his point if you know what I mean. Not concealed at any time.

    There are countless cases that can be referred to.

    The point is, lets say 99% of the time the holstered weapon is by an open carry movement person and a sane citizen. The fact is, that other 1% is not a risk an officer can take that it may be a deranged person on a suicide mission or other agenda. God forbid we let it go and he kills some innocent person and less importantly, him or herself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  13. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    ..."The point is, lets say 99% of the time the holstered weapon is by an open carry movement person and a sane citizen. The fact is, that other 1%..."

    Point not taken. You're talking closer to 99.999% and .001%, and most of the .001% will carry concealed, not open.

    I lived 61 years in Virginia, a gold star open carry state. We don't do the idiotic practice of carrying unloaded. Ours are loaded. And we don't get checked out by the police because we're within the law and they know it.

    Lady: "Come quick! There's a man with a GUN!!"

    Dispatcher: "Is he pointing the gun at anyone, ma'am?"

    Lady: "No."

    Dispatcher: "Where is his gun, ma'am?"

    Lady: "It's in a holster."

    Dispatcher: "What's the man doing, ma'am?"

    Lady: "He's eating lunch."

    Dispatcher: "He's fine, ma'am. He's not breaking any laws, and he's minding his own business. You can ignore him."
     
  14. Angel King

    Angel King

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    GP, you state:

    "We don't do the idiotic practice of carrying unloaded"

    Well in CA, you'd be arrested for having a loaded firearm then. If you have a CCW, then it's not open carry and you're in the wrong thread here. Open carry (in CA) is the holstered carry of an Unloaded firearm which is not a crime if you can legally possess that firearm and are not subjected to the restrictions I previously talked about.

    Carrying an unloaded holstered handgun?? I agree, it is absolutely pointless and only trying to make a statement.



    GP, you're not in Virginia anymore. Different state, different laws, different social norms and attitudes.

    Are we discussing the same things here. Look up open carry under CA law. Not Virginia's. We are in the CA section right???
     
  15. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    This is all part of the reasons you're known as Kommiefornia.
     
  16. Angel King

    Angel King

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    I don't know man, we're pretty open. We let every illegal alien in and support them and their entire family at owr own expense. How do you like that? LOL
     
  17. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    Well, you have my condolances on that one.

    We have it pretty bad in Florida, but not that bad.
     
  18. Angel King

    Angel King

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    Okay GP, well it was good having a discussion with you.

    Enjoy the sun over there since it's raining in southern Cal.

    Bye for now.
     
  19. glockpacker

    glockpacker 600 yd shooter CLM

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    I'm glad to hear you're in Southern Cal. I'll be in Sacramento for a week of 1,000 yard shooting at the F-Class National Tournament. Thank goodness I'm shooting Savage bolt guns in 6mmBR and in Winchester .284 calibers. Some of the guys wanted to use their target AR-15's and AR-10's at the 600-yard lines. But with the absurd stigma of "assault weapon" out there, they decided against making the trip.

    I shot a DPMS LR308 (AR-10 platform) for my first three years of 600-yard shooting. It was an absolute delight to shoot, and somehow it never went on a rampage to attack dozens of innocent sheeple.

    Kommiefornia's absurd gun laws adversely affect people far and wide. The legislature needs to learn that there's no such thing as gun control... It's PEOPLE control, but the people controlled are not the ones that do the crimes.

    They need to kick the whore Sarah Brady out of their bed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
  20. Angel King

    Angel King

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    I agree, gun control only affects the compliant citizens who conform with the gun laws. Not criminals who most of the time don't acquire their guns legally.

    Good luck on your shoot.