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On Elisco and Colt

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by darwin25, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. darwin25

    darwin25 Make your move

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    I just thought I should post this since madami nagPM sa akin about the M16 gas action and functionality regarding the Elisco and Colt upper and lower recievers. This is part of my reply to kristiansens' PM. Mukha kasing madaming BoGs ang interested sa rifle division ng IPSC eh.

    If you are using or planning to use an Elisco component sa pagbuo ng AR, here are my recommendations for components combination.

    1) For standard 16" barrel
    ----Any Elisco component can be substituted by other componets from Colt.



    2) For those who want a 14" barrel

    ---Colt or Bushmaster Upper reciever - choose the M-4 upper reciever (not the AR-15)for 5.56mm functionality since this is the cheapest and most readily available ammo supply, as well as .223 Remington ammo. For ammunition, choose the M193 5.56mm chambering, not the M855 5.56mm

    ---Elisco lower reciever.

    ---5.56mm NATO barrel. Any brand will do. M193 5.56mm chambering.


    If you are thinking of having an M4 commando to be built using any brand of component, I would advise you to forget about it. The minimum barrel length for any M-16 (even in the A2 designation) style gas action is 14". If you go any lower, it will adversely affect the rifle's reliability. Unless of course if you are using an upper reciever specifically designed to function with barrels shorter than 14". Meron na nito sa market pero hindi pa acceptable ang reliability nito.

    HTH

    Please correct me if Im wrong. This is only based from my own experience working with M-16s
     
  2. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    Good info Darwin.

    What about twist rates? Any particulars affecting long range accuracy, bullet stability, etc.
     

  3. darwin25

    darwin25 Make your move

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    Yes sir there is adifference in the lengths of twists(LOT) and number of lands and grooves between the military versions (M16) and civilian versions (AR-15, Bushmaster etc.) and will definitely have an effect on the long range accuracy and bullet stability.

    Military version have shorter LOT and more lands and grooves in the barrel to better handle the higher pressured and heavier M193(M16A1) and even hotter and heavier and longer bullets of M855 (M16A2) rounds. I think you can use .223 +P in military versions. So kapag ginamitan mo ng standard pressured .223 ang military barrel, here are the possible results:

    * Adverse effect on accuracy and stability. This is so since .223 has slower velocity than 5.56mm. Slower Bullet Velocity + Increased Bullet Spin == Negative effect on accuracy and stability. This is so because the increased number of lands and grooves and shorter LOT in miltary barrels give more contact to the bullet therefore increasing the friction and further slowing the bullets velocity.

    *Adverse effect on the gas action and possibility of a KB because the slower moving bullet may not drop the pressure inside the barrel to a safe level on time before chambering the next round. Heard this happen heaps of times in the field. Considering that the M16 is designed to deliver 750 rnds(?) /minute and the resulting gas action from a .223 will not be fast enough to reliably cycle the bolt and drop the pressure inside the barrel to a safe level before chambering the next round. You can only imagine the adverse consequences

    * If you use a .223 HP on a military barrel, the resulting expansion from lower velocity and increased bullet spin may fragment the bullet significantly to adversely affect the bullet's terminal performance.

    * Frequent malfunctions because it will not reliably cycle the bolt and gas action of the rifle. Double feeds, jams, unejected brass, etc.


    Likewise for civilian versions, care should be taken in ensuring that you use only .223 rounds on civilian barrels and upper recievers. This the most common mistake people make. They use 5.56mm NATO Ball in a .223 barrel (M193 to be exact and some even use M855 rounds) and some end up in a KB to the extent that they even hurt themselves. At the least, you can expect accelerated wear and tear on your rifle.
     
  4. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    Thanks a lot.

    Marami din pala abubot yang mga rifles no? Kaya pala nung last time nasa range ako, mey naka M4. Pero hirap na hirap siyang tamaan yung 40 yard target consistently.

    Pistol na lang muna ako. ;f
     
  5. Allegra

    Allegra

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    I find the pistol much faster on ipsc targets than rifles at 40m.
    Kahit sa follow up shots
     
  6. doctabako

    doctabako Gun Aficionado

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    Maybe I'm just lucky but my Colt M16A2 Commando has an 11.5 inch barrel and doesn't suffer from reliability problems. When I acquired it, it used to stop at full auto every 5 or so rounds but I traced it to a Magazine problem as it was still using its original Colt 20 rounders. I replaced it with local mags with stiffer springs and haven't had a problem since. My cousin also acquired one Colt "infant" M16(Its one of the first produced with excessive muzzle blast and meager long range accuracy) with a 10.5 inch barrel and it also doesn't have any problems as the oaf always uses it during baptisms and marriages in my province to show off(stupid dolt):)
     
  7. jojo_G19

    jojo_G19

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    i notice that mas marami ang nagkakaproblama na elisco than colt, so why does the philippine govt uses colt m16s???
    i also have a colt with 13inch barral, no problem.


    jojo
     
  8. BULM5

    BULM5

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    Bushmasters, Colt AR 15/ M-16 uses the 5.56 MM/ .223 Cal chamber. It is OK to use .223 cal in 5.56 mm chamber but not vice versa as it can create a potential problem. Just be sure that when you choose your barrel, it is stamped 5.56 MM / .223 cal. Also for 3 gunnin, 16 incher may ahve a hard time reaching minor PF depending on the conditions. At the recently concluded USPSA 3 gun Nat'ls , a couple of contenders lost the match as they went sub minor in the Chrony. They say the best compromise is an 18 in but I will still choose the 20 in. . FYI , for every in. U cut down the barrel, U loose 100 FPS. Go to this website to get more Info about AR 15s ; www.AR15.com or to www.brianenos.com
     
  9. jundeleon

    jundeleon

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    where can I buy a good baby M-16 type rifle or carbine?
    For home defense and hobby.
     
  10. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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  11. jasonub

    jasonub

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    even short barrels will work on elisco or colts. here the military people prefer the elisco since its newer compared to the colts.

    the problem is that if one cuts a barrel to 14 12, etc the gas tube becomes shorter and the required volume of gas that passes throught the gas tube is smaller or the pressure will also increase since the volume got smaller. the solution is easy, just buy a pigtail gas tube or have a bigger diameter gas tube. of which the volume of the gas should be the same as the volume of the original length gas tube.

    in terms of accuracy the ss109 and the dnd 5.56 grain have different ballistics and different twist rates should be used to stabilize it.

    as for the accuracy of the m4 that one of our bogs saw, its usually the crowning of the barrel and ammo selection.
     
  12. Eye Cutter

    Eye Cutter

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    mga kapatid, the US Armed Forces is about to replace the 5.56 mm ammo as standard issue for their troops in 2-3 years time because of a lot of failure to stop cases seen during action.

    i'm selling my brand new elisco lower (bare) frame for 16k only. anyone interested can PM me.
     
  13. romram

    romram

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    Is there a real difference between Colt and Elisco?(RO613 nad RO653)
    From my observations, these two are the SAME except for their markings (COLT and Elisco Logo). "P" markings is just assigned for Phils. designation.
    FYI : Elisco model RO653P with Retractable Metal Butt and 14.5 in barrel were being export to Israel way back in the 80's.(with Colt logo of course)
     
  14. jasonub

    jasonub

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    oh yeah its easier to license a colt than elisco since the elisco was ment for our armed forces and not for us civilians
     
  15. romram

    romram

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    I think it's the same lang, my friends were able to license their Elisco, specially now there is an amnesty at the FED.:)
     
  16. jasonub

    jasonub

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    your right. but without the amnesty. it wont be easy
     
  17. kerwin

    kerwin

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    Mga Sirs,

    I have an m-16 frankenstein marked Elisco, the upper receiver have a green finish and the lower receiver is gray, i dont intend to change anything but its plastic furnishings,the barrel and maybe its finish. The barrel is a bit pitted but can still hit metal poppers at 50 yards and do some damage to range property.
    ;f

    my question(s); where can i buy a new barrel for it and what barrel must i buy? How much would it cost? how abot the plastic foregrips and butt? what would be the best finish? Any suggestions?

    Thanks a lot!

    Kerwin
     
  18. bulm540

    bulm540

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    If you can find a chrome lined barrel over there that is the barrel to get.
     
  19. paltic

    paltic

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    meron ako nakita m16 at m14 barrels sa twin pines.....stainless ito ..mga 11k yata....
     
  20. 941f

    941f

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    Good am,
    Regarding Elisco rifles, I was able to buy one(M16 A1 baby kung tawagin nila) but I'm still not familiar with it. It's a bit old but in good condition. Barrel is 14.5" with 1:12 twist rate.
    The previous owner said it is an Elisco original using Colt parts. Any comment on the original Elisco? Serial number starts with 'RP'.
    I bought it for P26K.

    ;I