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A swamp dude
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Indeed my attitude is unmistakable because people don't know what they don't know. I said carry any way you like because of your earlier statement. I keep repeating myself. I said early on to carry anyway you like.

I am not going to even touch on what tactics schools teach. That is a rabbit hole that has 0 to do with this thread and you obviously think my way is the only way so you probably wouldn't listen anyway. I am not dogmatic but I do champion C1 for everyone that carries for SD regardless of handgun carried. Seeing that I have needed combat skills to you know save myself, I have taken what works from many instructors and applied it to my career. That said, "method of carry" is not a tactic. Sure there are many ways to take your opponent out and some work better than others depending on body type BUT people serious about their SD that carry a handgun do not carry C3, they just don't.

You reject my declaration? BAHAHAWA. You also then reject what every reputable shooting school in the US is teaching. Quite the expert you are.

As for the photographer comment, I guess I have you mixed up with another member here and you do have Photo in your screen name, My bad. Do professionals and amateurs really have different needs requiring different skills and methods? I know when I first started shooting weddings, I definitely listened to what the pros were teaching. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your last paragraph either but yet I am.

It's the start of the weekend and we are now 25+ pages in and I have the time so remind me again why you carry C3 for SD and why it is better than C1. I really don't want to scroll thru the thread again to find your earlier response.
See my post #488 and #663.
 

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A swamp dude
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Yeah we have already been over this, I answered the OP on the first page. From your post here, it seems like you can't stand the notion that your way isn't the only way. Carry C3, I don't care. It just is not the best way to carry for SD. Again, the members like yourself that are belaboring the issue lack the education and experience that those proposing C1 have.
Aren't you a former photographer? It would be like someone telling you how to shoot a wedding when they themselves have never shot a wedding. I will give you credit for your stubbornness.

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Just to be clear, my reasons for C3 carry apply only to pistols with a light (like 5#), short-travel trigger and no manual safety. I put these guns in a category similar to 1911s. See my post #488 and #663. That’s been my position here from the beginning.
 
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An old article by Walt Rauch on empty chamber carry…

 

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An old article by Walt Rauch on empty chamber carry…


Here's from one of my earlier posts on an experiment I performed a little over a year ago. It relates to the article you posted.

Keeping in mind that I am not an advocate for carrying a firearm for SD "unchambered", I still think that [1] carrying "C3" is better than not carrying at all and [2] the old saying of "a firearm without a round in the chamber is just a rock/brick/paperweight" is just - well - stupid. You can't covert a rock into an operating firearm in less than 1/2s.
So here are the results:
Time to first shot:
Text Font Line Monochrome Parallel
IDPA target, only "zero down" hits count.
I used my normal carry gun when I work security and about 50% of other times. I tend to alternate between a G23.3 and a Shield 9mm. I carry both in an OWB leather pancake holster. The 23.3 has metal meprolight sights.
Results:
From C3:
At four (4) yards, [drawing,racking the slide, shooting] took +/- 1/5th of a second (on average) longer than just [drawing, shooting]. At seven (7) yards, it took +/- 1/6th of a second (on average) longer.
Keep in mind that I do not practice this, so I could improve upon it. In fact, I ran some C3's (with both hands) after I gathered the data and was consistently getting between 1.30 and 1.45 at seven (7) yards. In the recorded runs, I tried to get my hand on the slide as soon as possible during the draw while bringing the gun "up". As it turned out, this was only slowing me down. I did better racking the slide just like a stoppage drill (without the tap), ie gun up, overhand slide, push forward.
From C3-1H:
So there have been comments about if your hand/arm is disabled, what are you going to do "throw the gun". So I did something I've never done before. I performed the "one handed rack" on the draw. I have done a "one handed rack" as part of a stoppage drill, but not on the draw. I practiced about 10-15 times dry, then went live and recorded the data. This turned out to be approximately 1/2s longer than a "C1 draw" at each distance.
Other thoughts:​
Drawing from C3 has more "moving parts" than just drawing, and introduces more possibility to effup; and C3-1H has even more "moving parts" with an even greater chance to effup. Generally my problems were [1] trying to go too fast, when I was more deliberate in the steps, my times actually went down by 0.10s 'ish and [2] fighting the years and thousands of draws that developed the (so called) muscle memory of drawing and firing (with nothing in-between).​
#2 above made me consider something that I had not fully considered. If you are going to carry, you should not switch between C1 and C3. Get proficient in one method (preferably C1) and stick with it, if you don't, there is a good chance you are going to pick the wrong set of "muscle memory" if you need to use a firearm in SD. Which means that you will eject a round (and take a bit longer) if you carry C1 and use "C3 muscle memory"; worse, if you carry C3 and use "C1 muscle memory", you will hear a "click" (hopefully).​
So for those who are carrying C3 "just to get used to carrying a firearm", you are probably not going to be very proficient in draw/rack/fire. If you practice enough, you will be proficient in C3, but then you've probably "advanced" enough to just carry C1 then.​

You made some good points, so I "took this to heart". I put myself on a timer today....

Keeping in mind that I am not an advocate for carrying a firearm for SD "unchambered", I still think that [1] carrying "C3" is better than not carrying at all and [2] the old saying of "a firearm without a round in the chamber is just a rock/brick/paperweight" is just - well - stupid. You can't covert a rock into an operating firearm in less than 1/2s.

So here are the results:

Time to first shot:

View attachment 806302
IDPA target, only "zero down" hits count.

I used my normal carry gun when I work security and about 50% of other times. I tend to alternate between a G23.3 and a Shield 9mm. I carry both in an OWB leather pancake holster. The 23.3 has metal meprolight sights.

Results:

From C3:

At four (4) yards, [drawing,racking the slide, shooting] took +/- 1/5th of a second (on average) longer than just [drawing, shooting]. At seven (7) yards, it took +/- 1/6th of a second (on average) longer.​
Keep in mind that I do not practice this, so I could improve upon it. In fact, I ran some C3's (with both hands) after I gathered the data and was consistently getting between 1.30 and 1.45 at seven (7) yards. In the recorded runs, I tried to get my hand on the slide as soon as possible during the draw while bringing the gun "up". As it turned out, this was only slowing me down. I did better racking the slide just like a stoppage drill (without the tap), ie gun up, overhand slide, push forward.​
From C3-1H:

So there have been comments about if your hand/arm is disabled, what are you going to do "throw the gun". So I did something I've never done before. I performed the "one handed rack" on the draw. I have done a "one handed rack" as part of a stoppage drill, but not on the draw. I practiced about 10-15 times dry, then went live and recorded the data. This turned out to be approximately 1/2s longer than a "C1 draw" at each distance.​
Other thoughts:

Drawing from C3 has more "moving parts" than just drawing, and introduces more possibility to effup; and C3-1H has even more "moving parts" with an even greater chance to effup. Generally my problems were [1] trying to go too fast, when I was more deliberate in the steps, my times actually went down by 0.10s 'ish and [2] fighting the years and thousands of draws that developed the (so called) muscle memory of drawing and firing (with nothing in-between).​
#2 above made me consider something that I had not fully considered. If you are going to carry, you should not switch between C1 and C3. Get proficient in one method (preferably C1) and stick with it, if you don't, there is a good chance you are going to pick the wrong set of "muscle memory" if you need to use a firearm in SD. Which means that you will eject a round (and take a bit longer) if you carry C1 and use "C3 muscle memory"; worse, if you carry C3 and use "C1 muscle memory", you will hear a "click" (hopefully).​
So for those who are carrying C3 "just to get used to carrying a firearm", you are probably not going to be very proficient in draw/rack/fire. If you practice enough, you will be proficient in C3, but then you've probably "advanced" enough to just carry C1 then.​
 

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Glock 45/19X
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35 pages! This may be a record for this particular topic. :)
 

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If you had read the question, you would have noticed that it explicitely EXCLUDES professional bad guys chasers...

There are bad guys chasers, there are people who get into harm's way because that's their job, and there are people who wish they'd be one of the above and train accordingly.

Then there are tens of millions of people who live ordinary lives where the most stressful event is the neighbor starting the lawnmower at 7 AM on a Sunday. They don't have the inclination, the time, or the mental vigilance to train and become the ultimate combat machine, jealously watching a lethal weapon ready-to-go 24/7. For those, carrying C3 makes a lot of sense.

I'm asking if there are actual cases where such people have had to defend themselves with a gun, so we can see if carrying C3 or C1 made any difference at all...

Now, if you don't mind, could you point out the hysterical rhetoric in my previous comments? I missed that when proof-reading.
I guess you missed the part about real life professional training/experiences have carried over to civilian training experiences...(n)
 

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I guess you missed the part about real life professional training/experiences have carried over to civilian training experiences...(n)
Well... You missed the part where civilians in most places never face anything comparable to what professionals face...

A NASCAR driver will have no problem going from home to Walmart by car, but you don't need to be a NASCAR driver to go from home to Walmart, so driving schools don't waste time and energy trying to make racing drivers out of pop-and-mom...

The fault with your reasoning is that everybody who owns a gun ought to train like Scott Reitz, when the truth of the matter is that few people have the physical and mental capabilities to handle the kind of situations that a SWAT team member handles - and they don't need to.
 

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Well... You missed the part where civilians in most places never face anything comparable to what professionals face...

A NASCAR driver will have no problem going from home to Walmart by car, but you don't need to be a NASCAR driver to go from home to Walmart, so driving schools don't waste time and energy trying to make racing drivers out of pop-and-mom...

The fault with your reasoning is that everybody who owns a gun ought to train like Scott Reitz, when the truth of the matter is that few people have the physical and mental capabilities to handle the kind of situations that a SWAT team member handles - and they don't need to.
You need to modify your questionable demands to exclude prior military, law enforcement and those who have attended weapons training programs such as Gunsite, and those who train/instruct and compete in events such as IDPA.,, and you really need to drop your wannabe/juvenile hysterics.

At least you are getting keyboard exercise. 😥
 

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You need to modify your questionable demands to exclude prior military, law enforcement and those who have attended weapons training programs such as Gunsite, and those who train/instruct and compete in events such as IDPA.,, and you really need to drop your wannabe/juvenile hysterics.

At least you are getting keyboard exercise. 😥
It seems that you don't understand the question... The point is, professionals who are going in harm's way face risks that have no correlation with what a quiet civilian can expect. I asked what these run-of-the-mill ordinary citizens have experienced in SD situations, so as to see what the reality is.

Now, for your "wannabe/juvenile hysterics" remark, you lost me there... Maybe you should explain better.
 

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I fully understand what the OP posted, what others do or don't do is a moot topic with me, I couldn't care less if one chooses to carry an empty chamber or not. My response to your call-out was I have experienced situations which occurred at lightning speeds, an empty chamber would have resulted in me being seriously injured or worse. Being flat on one's back with an outstretched arm makes it extremely difficult to chamber a round in a pistol. One could further take the OP's "empty chamber is better than not having a pistol" (gun quote changed to pistol, I don't believe the OP is suggesting carrying empty revolver with speed strips) statement, inferring a person is better off carrying a loaded revolver than carrying a non-operative pistol, vis-à-vis, an empty chamber that one is not able to chamber a round quick enough to avoid serious injury.

For whatever reason(s), you are doing a paradigm shift in the qualifications of a person's background outside the OP's first statement.

At this stage of life, I understand reality all to well.
 

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You need to modify your questionable demands to exclude prior military, law enforcement and those who have attended weapons training programs such as Gunsite, and those who train/instruct and compete in events such as IDPA.,, and you really need to drop your wannabe/juvenile hysterics.

At least you are getting keyboard exercise.
Well his analogy is a bit off in my way of thinking. Training to be a race car driver is indeed different than attending a driving school to be safer on the toad BUT in BOTH cases, you need gas in the cars to go anywhere.

The condition of your handgun is not a skill nor is it a tactic. I guess that is lost on some here. Pretty sure I carried a C1 1911 for probably 2-3 years before I went to an actual gun fighting school. Not sure my academy training counts since it was more of firearms safety, marksmanship, and laws regarding use of force.

Pretty sure I was shooting matches at least a few with my duty 1911 before I ever attended some shooting schools. They would have DQ me if I told the match directors I was going to C3 my 1911 because it had a 4.5 lb.. trigger on it.


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Well his analogy is a bit off in my way of thinking. Training to be a race car driver is indeed different than attending a driving school to be safer on the toad BUT in BOTH cases, you need gas in the cars to go anywhere.

The condition of your handgun is not a skill nor is it a tactic. I guess that is lost on some here. Pretty sure I carried a C1 1911 for probably 2-3 years before I went to an actual gun fighting school. Not sure my academy training counts since it was more of firearms safety, marksmanship, and laws regarding use of force.

Pretty sure I was shooting matches at least a few with my duty 1911 before I ever attended some shooting schools. They would have DQ me if I told the match directors I was going to C3 my 1911 because it had a 4.5 lb.. trigger on it.


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The fault with your reasoning is that everybody who owns a gun ought to train like Scott Reitz, when the truth of the matter is that few people have the physical and mental capabilities to handle the kind of situations that a SWAT team member handles - and they don't need to.
Why stop at "NASCAR" Instead of reading till the end?

This was my point, all gun-related: "The fault with your reasoning is that everybody who owns a gun ought to train like Scott Reitz, when the truth of the matter is that few people have the physical and mental capabilities to handle the kind of situations that a SWAT team member handles - and they don't need to."

I've had people buying a gun for the first time in their life because their neighbors got hacked to death. They had never come close to even touching a gun before, but they needed one to stay alive. All they needed to do was to shoot once or twice if a gang jumped their fence, and the thugs would disappear, even if no-one was hit. Now, how do you train someone who in fifty years has never had the inclination to shoot? No curiosity at all? Who looks like it would be a challenge to change a wheel on a car? All you want is to make sure that they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot, or something worse. Believe me, you DO NOT want someone like that to be carrying a Glock C1 in the waistband, or even to have a Glock C1 in the house, on a shelf. Are you going to tell them "Sorry, you're too dumb to carry C1, so you're not allowed to even try to defend yourself"?

Are they better off with a gun in C3 than with no gun at all? You bet they are.
 

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Why stop at "NASCAR" Instead of reading till the end?

This was my point, all gun-related: "The fault with your reasoning is that everybody who owns a gun ought to train like Scott Reitz, when the truth of the matter is that few people have the physical and mental capabilities to handle the kind of situations that a SWAT team member handles - and they don't need to."

I've had people buying a gun for the first time in their life because their neighbors got hacked to death. They had never come close to even touching a gun before, but they needed one to stay alive. All they needed to do was to shoot once or twice if a gang jumped their fence, and the thugs would disappear, even if no-one was hit. Now, how do you train someone who in fifty years has never had the inclination to shoot? No curiosity at all? Who looks like it would be a challenge to change a wheel on a car? All you want is to make sure that they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot, or something worse. Believe me, you DO NOT want someone like that to be carrying a Glock C1 in the waistband, or even to have a Glock C1 in the house, on a shelf. Are you going to tell them "Sorry, you're too dumb to carry C1, so you're not allowed to even try to defend yourself"?

Are they better off with a gun in C3 than with no gun at all? You bet they are.
You shoot yourself in the foot every time you make driveling posts like this. Grow up! :)
 

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Heres a special CAUTION from the Glock Gen 3 manual:

View attachment 980185

Looks to me like Glock is recommending empty chamber carry for civilians. Seems like since this is a Glock recommendation that the Glock faithful should be following the guidelines. :unsure:
 

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Looks to me like Glock is recommending empty chamber carry for civilians. Seems like since this is a Glock recommendation that the Glock faithful should be following the guidelines. :unsure:
Whew, one more reason I carry 686s and 1911s, most of the time anyway. :)
 

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A swamp dude
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Looks to me like Glock is recommending empty chamber carry for civilians. Seems like since this is a Glock recommendation that the Glock faithful should be following the guidelines. :unsure:
The Glock owner’s manual this excerpt was copied from came with my Gen 3 G19. Some say that language has been removed from more recent publications.

Glock pistols were originally designed for military and police use. Introduction into the civilian market came with the explicit instruction to carry without a round chambered because there was no “lateral safety lever” and no “grip safety device” (and the trigger is much easier to depress than revolvers). And, cops were frequently having NDs.

I believe the caution to carry unchambered was dropped from their manuals when Glock civilian sales skyrocketed simultaneously with self defense experts deciding that manual safeties are bad for various reasons. It was an interesting (and fortunate for Glock) development in gun fighting theory for civilians.
 

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Whew, one more reason I carry 686s and 1911s, most of the time anyway.
I had a 686 with 2 1/2 barrel years ago, excellent revolver. I'd love to have a 4 inch version.

Some say that language has been removed from more recent publications.
Which would be interesting since really nothing has changed on a Glock in regards to the safeties it offers.

I believe the caution to carry unchambered was dropped when Glock civilian sales skyrocketed simultaneously with self defense experts deciding that manual safeties are bad for various reasons. It was an interesting (and fortunate for Glock) development in gun fighting theory for civilians.
Glock has convinced a generation of koolaid drinkers that a MS is bad and unnecessary and striker-fired pistols with short and light triggers are perfectly fine without them. And ignore the unintentional discharges...it's a training issue. :unsure:
 
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