Oh cool, SCOTUS to get first COVID challenge...

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by knoxvegasdaddy, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Descendant

    Descendant

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  2. DAKA

    DAKA

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    OK I apologize, it's RUSSIA
     

  3. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    What if the country in which it occurred is controlled by a government which permits its police to do that? You're looking at it through the lens of America and its constraints of government power over free citizens, as enshrined in our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    That's rather parochial, don't you think? :p
     
  4. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

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    Why would anyone appeal a $200 ticket to SCOTUS? This is civil infraction, right? No criminal record?

    Can you imagine the legal fees involved to get through all the layers necessary to get there?

    Unless you’re independently wealthy it doesn’t make sense to do so for the principle.

    Randy


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  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    It will likely vary from one state to another, but some states have been up front in warning that violations of their order could result in criminal penalties.
     
  6. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

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    It basically can't be appealed to SCOTUS. Whren is a SCOTUS decision, which binds inferior courts to follow it.

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  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Looking at it from a practical (realistic) perspective just sucks the fun ... and angst ... out of it for some people. It forces them to respond in "motor boat" fashion. But, but, but, but :D
     
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  8. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    Very well said!

    You have fairly summarized a bunch of my thoughts in a single paragraph.

    Well done.
     
  9. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    Ok, I’ll bite on this one.


    I own a swimming pool service. Just yesterday, I went to Lowe’s and bought 50 lbs of sand for a job we are doing. FYI, swimming pool service has been deemed an essential service, lucky me! So, my company is in full tilt boogie. Gotta get those pools running. I feel blessed. If several million backyard pools turn to ponds, Zika, West Nile, and other mosquito borne pathogens will thrive all across America, and we just can’t have that right now.

    The sand is for a job, a pool “facelift”, for lack of a better term. The lady is a 15 year client, a divorcee single woman in her late 50’s, who is right in the middle of retiring. Bad timing, for sure.

    She MUST sell her house for a good number to pad her retirement for the next 15 years or so, and she is retiring to Sarasota Fl as soon as she can.

    If Lowe’s is closed, and I can’t get my sand (which is out in the lawn and garden outside area), then I can’t pretty up her pool, then she can’t show her house, so it won’t sell, which means she can’t move, which means a house in FL won’t sell, and she may be stuck in economic limbo for a year or two, and she might be eating dog food, so to speak, a decade from now. Sounds melodramatic, but it is possible.


    By doing her 2 day, 3 employee job (including me), which pays 3 grand, I’m keeping me and two other guys employed and paid. She gets to list the house, hopefully sell it, and get on with her life.

    No sand, and NONE of that happens. So obviously, this whole deal is vital to continuing the economy.


    At the same exact Lowe’s, on Sunday, I bought some landscape edging, some tomato plants, and a few bags of mulch. For my front yard and garden.

    ALL OF WITCH I COULD TOTALLY LIVE WITHOUT! I know that.

    The sand, a vital and essential construction material, which in a weird indirect way, moves the whole economy, from retail sales, to construction, to multi hundred thousand dollar home sales in 2 states, sits 20 feet from the mulch.

    Should they not sell me the mulch? I don’t NEED it, after all. But I NEED the sand.

    Should we close the whole department?

    It’s complicated, to say the least.


    And I hope you and your are well in the NY area, Merlin! And Sean MAC, and 4949, and all the other guys in the Big Apple area.

    Don’t think I’ve ever mentioned it, but my cousin is retired NYC Port Authority Lieutenant Gregory Anzalone, and I worry for his safety too, and the rest of my NY family, including my aunt, uncle, 3 other cousins, and five nieces and nephews. You guys hold strong up there.
     
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  10. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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  11. TBO

    TBO Why so serious? CLM

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    She was not driving, she was traveling.

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  12. merlynusn

    merlynusn

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    All of which is why it’s open. But every Tom Dick and Harry going to buy plants for their house is not essential. Is everyone doing it? Heck yeah. Stuck at home for an unknown amount of time with nothing to do, projects help keep sanity. But if the point is to stop the spread of this virus by limiting going out of your house it seems ironic.

    Maybe they limit certain things to contractors like you for work reasons. But that’s a slippery slope saying that you can buy this but not that when the same store is open.

    I just see the irony that someone can go get plants for their garden but can’t go get a haircut or go to a store to buy clothes (except for those big box stores that also sell food).
     
  13. collim1

    collim1 5ft of fury. The champ is back!

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    According to our governor it’s a misdemeanor. And she quotes a state code making it so.

    She can send be of her troopers to enforce it. I won’t. This is still the USA.

    And I am still really torn over if all this was really necessary. I have an immune compromise five year old boy at home. Battling cancer. I guarantee you I would have held him out of school during this outbreak. But I wouldn’t have expected the entire country to shutdown.
     
  14. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

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    You have no idea of what’s happening there beyond a three-second video. What led up to it? What happened and what was said prior to the footage?

    This is a perfect example of why departments handle their personnel investigations internally rather than farm them out to the uninitiated.
     
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  15. Sechott

    Sechott

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    Maybe not, the cop might be trying to prove how stupid the edict is.
     
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  16. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    As BenFranklin once said,


    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
     
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  17. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    I love you, man!
     
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  18. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    I don’t disagree with your statement. And also, to be really clear, I respect the hell out of you and your opinions, they are always sound and rational.

    I’m not getting at the stop, per se, I’m getting at the citation issued. I am in no way convinced that a Governor can order such a thing, and just decree that there is some old, vaguely worded health state statute that trumps the Constitutional right to freedom of movement and free interstate travel.

    I’m aware of Whren, and I completely agree that a traffic stop is in no way limited to the predicate for the stop. Generally, I’m a fan of the pretextual traffic stop. I’ve been on bunches of them, and they do identify crime in progress, no doubt, and are an effective tool for LE.

    HOWEVER, the Troopers apparently didn’t even explore the tint issue, and they didn’t cite for the taillight (which wasn’t actually defective, per the defendant). I will NOT accuse the Troopers of lying, I don’t do that, and I wasn’t there. But it appears, at this time, that they MAY have manufactured an illegal RAS for the stop. That’s NOT fact, but it is within the realm of possibilities. Which is why Larry Minns post regarding getting the dash cam video is important.

    If they did manufacture a falsehood to predicate the stop, doesn’t that throw Whren out the window?

    And, Whether the stop itself is legal or not, that still leaves the question of whether the citation violates Constitutional principles. Again, if she had said she was going to buy a Reese’s cup, or a lotto ticket, or a beer, that would be legal, but “just driving around for the hell of it” is illegal. To me, that just does not seem to pass Constitutional muster. Supremacy clause, equal protection clause, freedom of travel, etc., there are several angles to approach a Constitutional challenge.

    Having said all that, I completely agree with the great Sam Spade that this will likely get dismissed later. DAs are not likely to push this sort of prosecution, because of the expense, and also because they might not like the answer that a court may give them.

    After all, this is NOT the last pandemic we will see. Covid 20 is lurking out there somewhere.

    If it ends up that hundreds of these types of citations end up being issued, it it that far of a stretch to think that one or more MAY end up in a Federal court sometime down the road?

    Love to hear your thought on that, Ateamer. And Sam, and Bren, and others too.
     
  19. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    Last week, I talked to a Trooper friend of mine, he told me they were hanging back.

    The very next day, I saw a Trooper running radar pull a guy over and body up to the window like everything was normal times. I took a picture and sent it to him with the caption “I thought we weren’t doing this right now?”

    His response:

    “****ING MORON!”

    He was downright angry to see a brother Trooper risking himself like that.

    Trading paper is just a bad idea right now. I sure as hell would not want to give someone my pen to sign a cite, then take it back, and give it to five other people in the next two hours.

    I fully understand you gotta do your job, and I commend you ALL for doing it. BUT, be careful, be smart about it.

    Love you guys!

    Want to see you out on the road...on the first of May, STILL walking tall!
     
  20. knoxvegasdaddy

    knoxvegasdaddy UBER VOL !!!

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    Maybe a little over the top, but I get Larry’s point. It is within the realm of possibility that a person COULD get infected by an officer that is carrying the virus.

    The thing that makes this whole deal creepy and fearful is that 6 out of 7 carriers have NO idea they are carriers. They are healthy and asymptotic. Cops are generally young, healthy dudes. Which is the group most likely to be healthy asymptomatic transmitters of the disease.

    People are scared, man, and (mostly) for good reason.