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Off-duty carry training program

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by x5150x, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. x5150x

    x5150x On the Level...

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    Hello everyone!

    I'm trying to put together a training program for the agencies in my area...A program that address off-duty safety with an emphasis on off-duty carry. It seems that in my neck of the woods MOST of my fellow LEOs do NOT carry off-duty and don't really see a need to.

    I am hoping that with a little nudging in the form of a hard-hitting presentation about what can happen to ill-prepared off-duty officers would cause at least one of them to start carrying off-duty. I'd want to cover carry options, modes, etc. as well.

    Any suggestions? Do you have a powerpoint already assembled?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Patchman

    Patchman Florist

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    I think most, if not all, LEOs know intellectually the type of nonsense that could happen off-duty. I just think emotionally they don't believe, or won't accept the thinking, that it will happen to them.

    Must be a nice area where you work. :supergrin:
     

  3. x5150x

    x5150x On the Level...

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    We've got a lot of great cops in my area...Just, for some reason, many of them are sheep off-duty. It drives me crazy!
     
  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Several years ago I attended a week long class dedicated to plainclothes officer safety & tactics issues for cops working plainclothes & undercover, although much of it was certainly applicable to the circumstances and inherent dangers occurring when deciding to use a weapon in an off-duty capacity.

    Things like lack of 'work' equipment (radio, vest, long gun, etc) and potentially operating without the immediate knowledge of the local uniformed beat units, as well as maybe not being easily identified by them upon their arrival, especially if their arrival occurred when shots were still being fired, were discussed. The timing of the class sadly coincided with the death of a local agency's officer when arriving officers of his own agency didn't recognize him and perceived him to be a threat when they arrived at an incident where he was working undercover.

    Anyway, while there was a lot of firearms training (and a SIM scenario day where shoot/no-shoot situations were presented to students issued SIM guns), lecture emphasis was placed on discussing the dangers involved in being out of uniform and armed at the scene of a reported shooting, including being difficult to ID as a plainclothes/undercover/off-duty cop when the local units rolled up in the thick of things. All shooting was required to be done using plainclothes/off-duty equipment (no uniform gun belts) while wearing realistic cover garments (no photographer vests or IDPA-type token cover garments). I used a heavy jacket over an open zippered sweatshirt and T-shirt.

    I'd also emphasize student familiarity (and understanding) regarding the general orders/written policies of the various local agencies for whom the cops attending your class work, specifically involving off-duty actions.

    I'd try and avoid the 'death by powerpoint' lecture method as much as is practical, though. Got any agencies in your area where cops have been involved in off-duty shootings? Any of them willing to allow their employee to discuss the circumstances of their incident at your training? Any reports from cases you could highlight?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  5. BamaTrooper

    BamaTrooper Retired

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    Start pulling up crime stats for your area and show how easy they can be a victim.
    Otherwise, they have to know what they can and can not do when unarmed, i.e. their limitations. They should also know there is a time NOT to act.
     
  6. Patchman

    Patchman Florist

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    The rules to remember are that (1) the responding uniform officers are in charge, and (2) when they say "Police, don't move," the off-duty officer FREEZES. Obviosuly easier said than done, especially if the off-duty guy works uniform. His mindset is, "OK, back up is here" and he'll respond like he would while working (turning around, moving with gun in hand, etc...).
     
  7. drider

    drider

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    Is the badge the only identification an off- duty officer carries while off- duty?
     
  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Auditory exclusion, or diminished sense of hearing, is something worth considering. The off-duty cop not hearing the arrival ... or verbal commands ... of the local uniformed cops could become an issue for the off-duty cop and the responding cops.

    Also, even if a badge and/or ID card were held in one hand (or stuck in the waistband, hanging from a breast pocket or from a neck chain), don't count on it being visible ... OR RECOGNIZED ... in the chaotic activity surrounding a shots-fired call when responding units see someone, or more than one someone, with a gun in their hand.

    Set up some of those full-size, full-color photo targets on a range mixed among some other picture targets in a clustered situation context (both 'shoot' & 'no-shoot' targets), make the angle of presentation (visibility) a little less than perfect and even throw in some variable lighting conditions ... and see how many cops shoot the 'off-duty/plainclothes' cop with a 'badge wallet' clearly displayed in the non-gun hand. After the first several times you hear someone say "I only saw the gun in his other hand" during a qualification or training session, it gets you to thinking. Sure, you can discuss and re-mediate the critical priority of proper identification of a potential threat target when you're working with someone in your agency, and hope the message was received and will be remembered, but how much control do you have over the training done in other agencies, or the actions of cops working in other agencies (from the perspective of you living or being in other jurisdictions when carrying a weapon off-duty)?

    As was stated earlier, knowing when and when not to become involved is certainly worth discussing and considering. It's not uncommon for agencies to place restrictions, or make strong suggestions, regarding when they want their employees to take certain actions on their own time.

    You're always going to come across those cops who aren't required to be armed on their own time, and they really don't want to be armed on their own time.

    I remember Grossman saying something to the effect that he saw some statistics which reflected that only upwards of 20% of actively employed LE carried weapons off-duty.

    Sobering.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  9. AngryBassets

    AngryBassets Jagenden Übel

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    This is a mindset issue you simply aren't going to change with a training day. Either they care about themselves/their family, or they can sit there and beg for that armed robber in the supermarket not to kill him in front of his little kid.

    Can't save people from themselves. I've tried. Best you can do is set an example that you can be prepared off-duty without walking around like a wacker.

    I don't dress like a cop, and you will never know I'm carrying a gun until you try to victimize me or some other helpless person. Then, you'll probably die wondering who just shot you in the head.
     
  10. madcitycop

    madcitycop

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    x where in WI do you work?
     
  11. blueiron

    blueiron

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    You can't turn socialists into conservatives and you will waste your time trying to beat the benefits of off duty carry into those that do not believe in it.

    Put on the class for those interested and do the best job possible for their benefit. The non-believers may learn on their own and by their stupidity.
     
  12. x5150x

    x5150x On the Level...

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    PM sent.
     
  13. madcitycop

    madcitycop

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    I say give it to everyone, those that are on the fence may see the benefits. Those that don't care who cares its training hours and you can get a kick out of their ridiculous reasons why not to. :cool:
     
  14. lawman800

    lawman800 Juris Glocktor

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    It just keeps getting better, don't it?
    You don't need to concentrate on off-duty incidents but if you want, you can always get footage and interviews of the Odgen, Utah incident at the Carousel Mall. That's always a good one. Off-duty cop, with wife for dinner at a mall, undergunned, saved lives of innocents.

    I would throw in a bunch of stuff about just everyday violent statistics showing that anyone can be a victim and if they want to be a victim or do they want to be able to fight back against everyday crime. When they are off-duty, they will be picked as victims as much as anyone else since nobody can identify them as cops.
     
  15. FM12

    FM12 I need AMMO!

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    I tried this with just officer survival and was met with great resistance,especially from the older officers that "might" have to spend some off time training. It paid off eventually, though. THAnks FOR YOU EFFORTS. IF YOU DONT,NO ONE ELSE WILL!!DONT EVER GIVE UP...TRAIN OR DIE.
     
  16. Cochese

    Cochese Most mackinest CLM

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    PM me. I just put together a PPT for this very topic. It is geared toward my agency, but you can cannibalize it if you want...
     
  17. x5150x

    x5150x On the Level...

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    PM sent.
     
  18. Sundown

    Sundown

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    "If you have the legal authority and the ability to carry a firearm off-duty, and choose not to, I would like you to to remember to say one thing to yourself every time you walk out the door unarmed: 'Baaaaaaaaaaaah!'"
     
  19. shootindave

    shootindave

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    We have very limited training, but did have some. We did a training course where we would draw from concealment, practice telling family/children/etc to run to the car/hide... etc etc etc. finding cover/shooting.

    You can connect the dots. The most important part is training to protect the unarmed/untrained loved ones near you while finding cover and landing good shots.

    - Dave
     
  20. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    I work in a small town and most of the cops don't carry off duty. Only myself and 2 other officers do. The problem is people get complacient. I sure as hell I never need my gun but I want it with me in case I do need it.
    Pat