[ram1000]

I occasionally read that a carry gun should not be customized outside of its OEM condition for CC. Supposedly one that is changed to meet a specific owners preferences could be a legal point of contention if the gun had to be used in a self defense event as far as the legal right to defend is concerned. My question is then how would a specific gun like the Lone Wolf Timber Wolf bought complete from LW, which is completely custom, be looked at in such a circumstance. Would it be considered OEM?

 

[vart]

Shouldn't you be learning how to pump your own gas? :innocent: :supergrin:

 

[mreed911]

That tripe has been repeated so much people are believing it. Merely changing certain elements of a gun are unlikely to come up in an intentional shooting. Certain cosmetic things like "punisher grips" and such could potentially be used to show how you were looking for a fight, tear apart your self defense motive, etc. but this is going to depend on the specifics of any case and could end up being completely irrelevant to your case.

More liability comes into play when it's NOT an intentional shooting, e.g. "it just went off!" or "I didn't mean to hit the pregnant woman standing to the side of the bad guy!" Then any modification you make will likely be scrutinized to see if it contributed... and the OEM will disclaim any warranty/responsibility because it was modified beyond their specs. You'll have to fight a contributory negligence claim, most likely, if they can assert that whatever you changed contributed to the negligent discharge/hit.

I change sights, connectors and trigger springs and can justify that, if needed, by it improving accuracy, control, etc. Ideally, though, if I'm ever in a defensive gun use, there won't be any question that I intentionally shot at, hit, and stopped whatever was threatening me.

Maybe I should go get my gun Cerakoted pink with Hello Kitty just so when a jury sees it they go "awwww..." God forbid that ever actually happens.

 

[1911poor]

Someone with a better background in this area will surely chime in. I have three sources that have directed my way of thinking, and all of my defensive carry weapons are now OE. In Alaska, where I live, there is a "stand your ground" law, so citizens here are not required to do their best to leave or run from an attack, breakin etc. When it comes to civil court, things such as trigger pull are big areas of concern (especially in accidental shootings). Lighten one up and your opposition can make some hay. One of my sources was my son's father inlaw, who was a US magistrate and a very strong advocate of citizen carry. (His court was in upstate NY) We talked about what would and wouldn't look good to a jury. Ammo had as much to do with being able to convince a jury that you were at least partly at fault. Hangover from the "black talon" days. His advice was to stay away from military rounds, and stay away from anything named or made primarily for law enforcement. It seems that the anti's have done a good job of convincing a great deal of the non gun owning public that fmj is for piercing armor and that anything designed for law enforcement really should not be in the hands of civilians. Kind of scary, and it probably depends on where you live. He did say that things that were dubbed "defense" and "home defense" rounds were things that the antis had more trouble gaining traction against.

Your question about the custom is a good one. A retired police chief advised me against carrying any of mine. Again, it probably wouldn't affect the outcome of someone attacking me in my home, but say I got into a parking lot altercation that escalated to me pulling one of those out and it could be made to look like I was "spoiling" for a fight if there was anything else suspicious. Three sources, a man who sat the bench, one who defended people, and one who arrested people all agreed on was that in some cases, it depends on what a DA may have as far as future aspirations, when it comes to them building or considering a case against someone like me.

Reloaders are always starting from the penalty line it seems when it comes to juries. So I don't carry my own recipes anymore. If I really felt like I would be better off substantially by carrying a round that is specifically law enforcement oriented (but legally available to citizens), I would still do so, but again, that is the case where the three point rule (1 Shut up. 2 Shutup. 3 Shut up.) rule would definitely apply.

The most important thing in his estimation (the judge) for anyone who is going to be questioned about any shooting (applies elsewhere too) is to do nothing more than calmly identify yourself and state that you will answer questions as soon as you have advice from counsel, and DO NOT waiver on that. Worry less about how that will look, and more about what you are likely to say and how it will be made to look. Very hard, but sitting in any cell waiting for your counsel is a more optimistic situation than waiting your release.

 

[Stevekozak]

Shouldn't you be learning how to pump your own gas? :innocent: :supergrin:

Vart gets off a good one! :devildance:

 

[mreed911]

Your last paragraph is the only one that matters. Everything before that is at best well-intentioned speculation that can't be applied in any specific case because they're all so different.

Ideally, you avoid a DGU through good awareness.

If you get into a DGU, ideally there's no question that you fired intentionally and hit what you fired at.

Past that, anyone can argue anything. Just remember that if the POLICE get in a shooting, they get representation FIRST and make a statement SECOND.

You should too.

 

[PEC-Memphis]

That tripe has been repeated so much people are believing it. Merely changing certain elements of a gun are unlikely to come up in an intentional shooting.

Thanks for leading off with information that clearly indicates that you have no idea what you are writing about, so that we need read no further.

 

[PEC-Memphis]

If you get into a DGU, ideally there's no question that you fired intentionally and hit what you fired at.

What if you didn't?

 

[mreed911]

Thanks for leading off with information that clearly indicates that you have no idea what you are writing about, so that we need read no further.

As always, the blind believers of internet lore make an appearance.

Please provide a case citation where a mechanical change to a gun used in a DGU resulted in a defeated self-defense charge.

Note: Mechanical, not cosmetic.

Additional Reading: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/06/legal-brief-carrying-modified-gun/

 

[Joco34]

The main issue is the perceived intent of the shooter not the weapon. For instance wearing a tee shirt that says something like “shoot them all and let god sort them out” when you are pleading self defense is probably a bad idea. If you fiddled with the safety like on a Browning High Power to get a drop free mag release and smoother trigger and had an accidental discharge you would have a more difficult case to make etc.

 

[1911poor]

I think some of us are assuming some expertise here that probably isn't earned. It is why I rely more on those who have multiple experiences in the various phases. As for myself, and my friends almost all would look like good ordinary tax payers. Not too ripe for overzealous prosecution, but a prime target for lawsuits. Even if the other side is not awarded any money, you still "lose" those.

 

[mreed911]

...and had an accidental discharge you would have a more difficult case to make etc.

To be clear - an AD/ND with a modified gun is a completely different beast. Caveat emptor.

 

[1911poor]

Exactly, and it is why one of my friends who had a warning on his business about armed after hours protection was advised by friends in law enforcement and his insurance company to remove the sign.

The main issue is the perceived intent of the shooter not the weapon. For instance wearing a tee shirt that says something like “shoot them all and let god sort them out” when you are pleading self defense is probably a bad idea. If you fiddled with the safety like on a Browning High Power to get a drop free mag release and smoother trigger and had an accidental discharge you would have a more difficult case to make etc.

a

 

[PEC-Memphis]

As always, the blind believers of internet lore make an appearance.

Please provide a case citation where a mechanical change to a gun used in a DGU resulted in a defeated self-defense charge.

Note: Mechanical, not cosmetic.

Thanks again for stressing the difference between mechanical and cosmetic, again you don't know what you are writing about.

You can do a search on this forum to find this information. I, and several others have posted it before.

I know several SMEs/lawyers in the use of force/SD - they all pretty much agree agree that this has been, and will be in the future, an issue for a some plaintiffs in SD cases.

Go take some classes in SD law, then you will understand.

In the first class I took in SD law, one of the first things the the lawyer/instructor said is that "after this class, you will never be able to tolerate a internet self-defense law discussion again".

If you have a very, very clear-cut case of self-defense with several [agreeing] supporting witnesses and no political complications a gun modification [likely] isn't going to be an issue; but there aren't many cases [outside of the home/curtilage] that meet this criteria.

I'm giving this information for your benefit, and others who might believe your opinion, not for my benefit - or to be argumentative. I don't have a dog in the hunt, I've done the research, taken the classes and met/acquired the the [multiple] instructor credentials.

I'm assuming you are an adult - and are therefore free to make your own mistakes; just don't mislead others.

For the others, don't trust my [or certainly not mreed's] statements or opinions - take a class [preferably] or read a book [if you can't afford or get to a class] on the law of self defense.

 

[mreed911]

Thanks again for stressing the difference between mechanical and cosmetic, again you don't know what you are writing about.

When you start with such a baseless assumption you undermine the rest of anything else you had to say.

And have yet to provide a citation to a case where this invalidated a self-defense defense or turned a good shoot bad.

 

[PEC-Memphis]

When you start with such a baseless assumption you undermine the rest of anything else you had to say.

And have yet to provide a citation to a case where this invalidated a self-defense defense or turned a good shoot bad.

You need a SD law class.

You make a nonsensical argument. You don't get to decide what is a "good shoot" or a "bad shoot" - a lot of other folks get to decide that. Just look to SD cases that were overturned on appeal (where even a laser sight, among other juror perceptions, were an issue) - that is where a "good shoot" was turned to a "bad shoot" then [on appeal] to a "good shoot", resulting in a lot of anguish and expense on the plaintiff's part.

Again ....

I'm giving this information for your benefit, and others who might believe your opinion, not for my benefit - or to be argumentative. I don't have a dog in the hunt, I've done the research, taken the classes and met/acquired the the [multiple] instructor credentials.​

As I said before,

For the others, don't trust my [or certainly not mreed's] statements or opinions - take a class [preferably] or read a book [if you can't afford or get to a class] on the law of self defense.​

 

[mreed911]

Just look to SD cases that were overturned on appeal (where even a laser sight, among other juror perceptions, were an issue)

I'll ask this again. Which cases? Citations, please.

As of now you're still proffering a baseless argument.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

Mas Ayoob personally told me that there have been cases where a lighter trigger was used as evidence of an AD/ND by a savvy prosecutor. I value his word. I shoot better with my minus connector, but my pocket carried G26 has a + connector.

I suppose outside the waistband while riding on my tractor I could pretty easily justify having a nice 3 pound trigger to whack coyotes across the field. Probably could carry it all the time in Georgia, but why risk it.

To the OP’s question, any of the custom weapons people carry even if OEM by a small company, could be used to paint the carrier as a psychopath. The more vanilla and boring, the better. It all falls on a spectrum of risk mitigation and the trade off’s you’re willing to accept.

If you were trying to stop an active shooter, you could use a comp’ed 9x25 dillon with the hottest reloads ever cooked up, shot from a tricked out gun with a 2 pound trigger. You’d be a hero, praised by all for the lives you saved.

If you’re in a dark alley in a left-leaning municipality, with no witnesses and a Travonesque situation transpires, a ‘dot’ connector in your Gen 3 could screw you.

My idea is to carry OEM internals for reliability and legitimacy, and make damn sure that if I have to defend myself (god forbid) that it’s a ‘good shoot’.

One last note, there’s probably a reason that police departments don’t let their officers install ghost rockets and other ninja gear. Typically the citizen will be held to a far higher standard than LEO’s in deadly force cases.

 

[mreed911]

Mas Ayoob personally told me that there have been cases where a lighter trigger was used as evidence of an AD/ND by a savvy prosecutor.

AD/ND cases are different from intentional DGU's. That distinction was made earlier by me and others.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

AD/ND cases are different from intentional DGU's. That distinction was made earlier by me and others.

Sure that distinction can’t be purposely muddled by an ambitious prosecutor? Intention is a helluva thing to prove.