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NRA gun instructor shoots student by accident

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Jon_R, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...r-shoots-student-022020100220,0,7681201.story

    A gun instructor accidently shot a student in the foot Saturday during an NRA class to receive certification to carry a concealed weapon, Orlando police said.

    Robert Frauman Jr., 50, was taken to Florida Hospital after instructor Michael Phillips' firearm discharged about 11:45 a.m., police said.

    Phillips, 32, could not be reached for comment. The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near he Fashion Square mall.

    The bullet went through a table before it hit Frauman, said Kristy-Lee Lawley, the church's communications director. She said Frauman, a member of the church, was "recovering well" and the bullet didn't break any bones.

    Frauman was one of three students in the class, which was not a church-sponsored event, Lawley said. She said the church offered an upstairs conference room for free after some church members requested to have the class there. Lawley said the church is empty on Saturdays and this was the first class of its kind there.

    "We won't be having anything like that in our church in the future," Lawley said.

    The church with 2,500 members is headed by Pastor Isaac Hunter, son of the Rev. Joel Hunter, senior pastor of the Longwood-based megachurch Northland, A Church Distributed. The churches are not affiliated.

    The NRA has a rule against bringing ammunition into a class, said Tom Wagner, a NRA instructor in Orlando who was not involved in Saturday's shooting. He said the association has "no problem yanking a certification if the rules are being broken."

    This was not the first time something's gone wrong during a gun demonstration in Orlando. In 2004, a special agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration shot himself in the thigh with a .40-caliber Glock pistol while talking to schoolchildren about gun safety.
     
  2. Flatulence

    Flatulence 5X EMU Champion

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  3. CharlestonG26

    CharlestonG26

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    Ammo in the classroom....what a stupid thing to do...there goes this guy's NRA teaching certification.
     
  4. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    I like the reference to the infamous DEA officer.....

    We don't have all the facts but I am not sure what facts cold come out to make this any better. Sounds like a failure on many different levels for a certified safety instructor to shoot his student.

    If they toss his credentials then his certificate for the training will not be valid for them to get their permits. If this happened at the end or when the training was over it will stink for the guy who got shot that he will have to go find another instructor with valid credentials.
     
  5. Dandapani

    Dandapani

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    Must not have been professional enough.
     
  6. jhayesvw

    jhayesvw

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    what kind of gun?
     
  7. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    I do not mean to diminish anyone but.... The training, knowledge and experience needed to be a "instructor" can vary WIDELY from place to place and topic to topic. I would be real careful on who I allowed to instruct me about anything. I want instructor to mean expert when it comes to firearms, scuba or skydiving.
     
  8. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    I sort of doubt that is at the top of the list for him....

    I also would be surprised if he didn't get an immediate refund.

    Just goes to show you, that you should stay aware of your trigger finger at all times. If you are nervous in front of people, just maybe, you should not handle firearms in front of other people.
     
  9. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith

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    No doubt. Now what was the instructor doing with his gun out in class? Showing it to them? And he put his finger on the trigger? Pointed it at him (rmember bullets DO go through things like tables.)

    Wonderful. When I teach CHL classes I wear a 'Red' Glock. That is a training plastic non-shoot replica of a Glock. I don't pack my carry gun when teaching.

    Deaf
     
  10. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    I have my loaded concealed carry pistol on me at all times, even while instructing.
    But my CCW stays CONCEALED. It's not a demonstrator or a prop. I utilize Blue Guns for classroom demonstration purposes. At no time have I felt the need to "show off" the fact that I'm carrying.
    I've instructed CCW classes since 2004 and to my knowledge none of my students knew I was armed throughout the 12 hour classroom sessions.
    Once we arrive at the range I open carry by tucking my shirt in so it becomes obvious. At the range my gun is utilized on occasion for live fire demonstration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2010
  11. JuneyBooney

    JuneyBooney

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    He may lose his certification over that. But I do show live rounds to people but they are not with weapons at the time. I hope it didn't go through the bone. Owwww.:wow:
     
  12. CharlestonG26

    CharlestonG26

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    +1...good advice to anyone who is considering risky activities like scuba, skydiving, etc.
     
  13. maddyfish

    maddyfish left this *****

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    Back in '97 or so, I forgot when I actually took my course. The instructor used a hand cared wooden version of a Glock. Guess he didn't know about blue guns.
     
  14. 05FLHT

    05FLHT

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    I am not saying that it happened in this instance, but when I attended a class for a UT/FL carry permit, the instructor announced several times as the pistols were being passed around for viewing, that each and every person was responsible for checking the weapon, each and every time. He told a story about having a class where a weapon was returned to him with the addition of a loaded round.
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Unfortunately, you don't have to be an expert to get a NRA inst cert. No live ammo in class. I've been to CCW qualifications & it is just pure scarey the folks that are carrying guns out there.:wow:
     
  16. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    I'm not an NRA instructor, but let's see.

    1. Assume all guns are loaded.
    -- Hmm, I don't think the NRA teaches that anymore. NYS DEC does. I teach it to my kid. My father taught it to me.

    2. Don't point a gun at anyone, not even their foot.

    3. Keep your finger off the trigger.

    4. Know your target and what is beyond.
     
  17. Rusty Shackleford

    Rusty Shackleford mmhmm

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    I'm sure he was just giving a graphic demonstration of what happens when you violate all of those rules at the same time... all went according to the plan. :supergrin:
     
  18. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    He revoked his NRA certification himself, right then and there. :wow:

    FL has no live fire requirement. I hope someone else (another NRA instructor) steps up to the place and offers the class for gratis.




    I am a NRA instructor, and there are minimum standards that have to be met to become a NRA instructor.

    I am also a NRA training counselor, and very pro-active in getting the NRA to pull credentials for instructors who do not meet those minimum standards, and/or folks who cut corners in presenting classes advertised as "NRA Basic" courses. Last year I initially refused instructor certification to over 1/2 doz individuals who sat thru the courses, and completed most, or all of the exercises. My comfort level has to be way high to sign off on your cert.


    If you are running a NRA Basic course, you run the risk of losing your NRA instructor certification.

    He's most likely going to lose his certification. That would be one sure way for any certifying organization to indemnify/distance themselve from someone not adhering to their standards. Please note; I did not say this part in blue applies specifically to the NRA, nor do I speak on behalf of, or for the NRA.


    Either way, the guy is a total dumbass for having a loaded gun in his class, now - no more classes at the CHURCH. I got dollars to donuts he was not paying anywhere near the $300+++/ 10 hr day it cost me to rent a range /classroom.

    Dumbass.


    'Drew
     
  19. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    I'd rather lose my certification than be killed in a robbery of the hotel in which I rented the conference room.
    I'd rather lose my certification than be mugged on my way out of the classroom.
    I'd rather lose my certification than have an angry ex-husband come to class to kill his ex-wife who's learning about firearms to defend herself and all I can do is stand there with my dick in my hand to stop him.
    I'd rather... you get the idea?
    btw: I do not conduct "official" NRA classes, but if I did... I'd carry my freakin gun because life happens whether you're prepared or not and I choose to be as prepared as possible.
    It's rules like that which help separate those who are sheepdogs from those who pay lip service to being sheepdogs.
    I carry anywhere and everywhere I'm legal to do so, rules and policy be damned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  20. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    And a holstered gun is a safe gun..... If it was a demo gun it should have been cleared and verified clear before the class. If it was a CC gun, it should be concealed and not part of the class....