Not shooting at Target World again

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by Citizen Carrier, Apr 1, 2007.

  1. Citizen Carrier

    Citizen Carrier Guest

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    I drove down to Target World, in the greater Cincinnati area, to compete in the second match of a three match indoor GSSF series today.

    I told the guy at the counter running the GSSF match that I wanted to shoot three relays, 2 with my G24C and one with my G21.

    He told me that was fine, but that only my first relay with the G24C would count as record. I asked why wouldn't the highest of my two relays be the one counted for record. He said that the new rules say that only one relay, the first, would be counted for each type of handgun a shooter uses.

    Trust me, I had him explain this to me carefully, as I was having difficulty understanding the logic.

    I asked him again, clearly, that if I wanted to shoot three relays with just one Glock, only the first relay would count for record even if my second and third relays scored higher.

    He said yes. He further said that they were trying to get people to shoot relays with more varieties of Glocks.

    So why would anybody pay Target World to shoot three relays with the only Glock pistol they own if only the first relay would be counted? That's as good as throwing away $20 on the second and third relays. You'd save more money just using that cash to buy standard range time.

    I was starting to become very annoyed and I pointed out that I shoot GSSF matches at Lauhorner and Blackwing and never heard of such nonsense as this. The young man then said quietly that I should just shoot two relays with my G24C and "declare" the higher scoring relay to be "the first one that I shot".

    So now I have to lie?

    What's more, I shot in the first match of this series and fired two relays with my G24C then and had the higer of the two counted for record without anybody ever asking me if it was the first or second relay I'd shot.

    I'd driven an hour and twenty minutes to shoot this, so I just paid for one G24C relay and one G21 relay and proceeded to get the ordeal over with.

    After I shot, I brought my targets back to the counter for scoring and there was another shooter registering to compete. He pulled out a customized Glock with an extended barrel, aftermarket sights, and a few other bells and whistles and asked if he could compete with it.

    No, he was told. Only "stock" Glock pistols could be used in the GSSF match.

    I raised an objection, saying that yes, by the GSSF rules he can use a customized pistol in the Master Unlimited class.

    The same clerk who unhesitatingly told the guy his gun wasn't legal then explained to me with shrug of his shoulders that Glock matches aren't his thing and that he didn't know the rules.

    He sure seemed to know them well enough to tell a guy he can't use his Glock pistol in the match!

    It was then I decided to stick with the much better run Lauhorner and Blackwing GSSF matches...
     
  2. ede

    ede

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    never shot there parly because of that. it doesn't make sense to me. i shoot lauhorner, blackwing, and NASR. not sure what lauhorner is doing any more they only showed 1 score of the 4 i shot last month, and all were with differant guns.
     

  3. vmw

    vmw

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    On April 21, the New Albany Shooting Range, New Albany, Ohio, will host the first 'KNOWN' GSSF-IM that will be held under the new IM rules. Granted there isn't a rule that specifically addresses the number of runs that you can shoot with a particular model GLOCK but as NASR has done for the past 5+ years of GSSF-IM matches, you can shoot the same gun as many times as you want. All of the scores will be listed with the highest score the one that will be used in the determination of the 2-match average. The match announcement will be posted in the next day of so.

    vmw
     
  4. ANeat

    ANeat Got Pb?

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    I was shooting at the GSSF match at Target World. The guy that was shooting with me shot 2 matches with the same gun and they took the higher score.

    Sounds like you were dealing with a guy that had the rules explained to him second or third hand and we was putting his own spin on it. That really screws up your frame of mind to as youre getting ready to go out there and shoot.

    Ive just started this GSSF stuff so someone give me some info on where the other shoots are in the SW and central Ohio area.

    Thanks; Adam
     
  5. Nukem

    Nukem

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    ah, but shooting anywhere anytime beats the heck out of a day of not shooting! sorry 'bout the aggravation, but this is a "didn't get to shoot day" and I am feeling jealous of those shooting under any circumstances...
     
  6. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    That's why I quit shooting there ages ago. I could use my G17, 34 and 26, but if I only had one Glock, it was one time. I have my G17 I use for competition, a first generation G17 and a comemorative G17 and I wrote them asking if I coud use each of them because they were all different guns. They said no, just one G17 one time for score. They've always had it that you could only count your first score with each gun, so I don't know why he said it was a new rule. I can shoot one time for each Glock I have, like I can shoot once with a G17, G19, G26 and each one counts. But, I have known a person to win Group A, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, because each gun counts as a differnt person.

    I don't want to waste the gas and two hours of my time to go to the Target World Match and haven't for the last two years. I like NASR, BlackwingSC and Lauhorner. I've even decided against VAndalia, but not because of the gun count. I've never heard of a gun count with any IM competitons and I've gone to several. TW is the only one who does that stuff.
     
  7. shadow_dog

    shadow_dog Hilljack

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    When I shot Saturday there were 7 of us waiting, I was #6 of the 7. From the time I got there till I left (scored), it was exactly 2 hrs. I can't fault the RO that I had, he done a GREAT job IMO. . He was shooter friendly, this was the first time I had seen him there. When I was being scored the RO came back out to help with counter sales. I have noticed a difference as far as slowness over the last 18 mths.

    FWIW, when I went to the waiting area, there were 7 of us waiting. It was almost 30 minutes after I got there before someone other than the RO I had, made an effort to come over and start the shooting. And no, this wasn't when the store first opened, it was well into the business day.
     
  8. Citizen Carrier

    Citizen Carrier Guest

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    If we had the same RO, I will admit that he was a friendly enough guy.

    See, I had been shooting since 8 AM Saturday at the Ohio State University.

    Free pistol.
    Standard pistol.
    Sport pistol.
    Air pistol.

    My shooting pal and I got 3/4s through it to find out there wasn't going to be Lewis System in the scoring. That was a bummer.

    We didn't know. So we spent the whole day competing against some of the best shooters in the state with their expensive free pistols, Euro-autoloaders, and Steyr air pistols.

    I was single-loading a Ruger for free pistol, and shooting the Ruger in Standard and Sport. My IZH-34M air pistol was about the only thing that kept me qualitatively close to my competitors.

    Soooo, after coming in dead last at OSU I had to rush down to Target World (exhausted) to have these nitnoid, irrational match rules explained to me.

    Man, I was cranky. And the RO, while nice enough, kept giving these wierd "Yoda" range commands.

    Like, "Your weapons load and make ready."

    Or telling us to "Load one ten round magazine" and then a few seconds later "Make the weapon ready!"

    When you chamber a Glock, it is ready.

    I guess I can't fault a guy for going by the numbers.
     
  9. ANeat

    ANeat Got Pb?

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    New he was:animlol:
     
  10. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    FWIW, when I did shoot at Target World, I'd leave right after work (I work 3rd shift) and I'd get down there about 9:30. Well, they really didn't open until 10, but I remember the range and the RO letting me and a man and his wife shoot together. It seems that every month I'd be there with these people and we'd laugh about it! It wasn't crowded then, even at 10am it wasn't too bad. Then, a bunch of shooters would come in and you'd wait. Then they'd let regular customers shoot in the same area as the GSSF Match. I think they only had about two or three lanes for the GSSF Match, and the rest was just regular customer shooters. I remember the RO being especially a nice person running the match. He's tell me exactly how many seconds I shot a certain stage and he was helpful at times, in slowing me down!
     
  11. domzilla9

    domzilla9 Phone Flinger

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    Citizen Carrier

    Apparently Target World is the only range in Ohio that does actually know how to run a GSSF Indoor Match, though the RO could definitely use some coaching.

    Before you try to quote the rules you should actually read them. There are no class divisions in Indoor GSSF. Please note the distinction "Indoor". The Open Master Unlimited class only exists in (outdoor) GSSF proper, not Indoor GSSF. In Indoor GSSF, the only characteristic of the firearm that distinguishes one relay is its Model Number. Period.

    From the questions that you've asked in your post I'd have to assume that you haven't shot many different kinds of Pistol Competitions or haven't shot a lot of GSSF indoor or outdoor.

    Why would I want to compete in any match where a competitor with more free time and pockets deeper than mine could keep buying practice relay after practice relay until their match nerves finally settled down and they shot their best score and declared it their record?

    What, no free brie with your whine? At every GSSF indoor match that I have ever shot at there is always some guy like you that was apparently raised by wolves in the wilderness and then suddenly started walking on his hind legs and decided to shoot a pistol match. Why is this not common sense to you? Is your character completely lacking in sportsmanship?
     
  12. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    If you check IM rules, now there is an unlimited classification that just started.
     
  13. Citizen Carrier

    Citizen Carrier Guest

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    I guess you didn't get the last issue of "Glock Report"? That's the one that has the amatuer-stock, amatuer-competition, master-unlimited and other classifications for indoor GSSF matches. See, I've read those rules. You don't seem to have done so.

    But how about we take this further? Here is a quote from Target World's own website. Here:

    http://www.targetworld.net/gssf.htm

    Shoot As Many Times As You Like During Each Match. Your Top Two Scores For Each Course Of Fire Count Toward Your Overall Average.

    But that is SPECIFICALLY what they told me WOULD NOT HAPPEN. HE SAID RIGHT TO MY FACE THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I SHOT, THE FIRST SCORE ONLY WOULD COUNT.

    So their website says one thing AND the first match in the series was shot under THAT rule, but they decide to change the rules in mid-series AND that makes me the guy at fault in your eyes?

    Not only are you unfamiliar with the new GSSF indoor rules, but you don't seem to be familiar with Target World's website either before you decided to chime in here.

    But that didn't stop you from typing this...

    I've shot three GSSF matches at Blackwing, two at Lauhorner, and two at Target World. I've shot three "1911 matches" in Middletown. Seven or so pin matches at Blacking. Three seasons of bullseye at The Powder Room and two seasons of bullseye at Ohio State University. I've also shot four rimfire bowling pin matches at Ohio State, three NRA style "Action Pistol" matches at Ohio State and two ISSF matches comprising Free Pistol, Sport Pistol, Air Pistol, and Standard Pistol at Ohio State University.

    You know what happens when you assume, right?

    Again, I quote Target World's own website.

    Shoot As Many Times As You Like During Each Match. Your Top Two Scores For Each Course Of Fire Count Toward Your Overall Average.

    If you shoot indoor GSSF, then you are competing against people who are probably shooting more than one relay. In fact, I've never known anybody to drive an hour or so on a Saturday morning just to shoot a single 50 round box of ammunition and drive home.

    Is that how it is in the GSSF matches you shoot in? Where do you shoot?

    Let's see. You have no knowledge of the GSSF indoor rules, no understanding of the discrepencies between what Target World's website says and what their desk clerks are now saying, but I AM THE ONE LACKING IN COMMON SENSE?

    Ah, but remember also how I was "whining" without brie cheese about how they told that guy he couldn't compete with his moderately customized Glock with the extended barrel?

    Again, how about we quote Target World's website?

    http://www.targetworld.net/gssf_faq.htm

    For the purposes of Target World’s GSSF Indoor Match, stock is defined to be any Glock with any modification, except for those Glocks with electronic, laser, or optical sights. Guns with electronic, laser, or optical sights may be used in the match but will not count towards the shooters overall score.

    THAT MAN'S GLOCK DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING BUT REGULAR OLD IRON SIGHTS AND THEY LOOKED RIGHT AT HIM AND SAID "NO" HE COULDN'T COMPETE WITH IT.

    They didn't say he could shoot it, but it wouldn't count towards a prize or something. They said he couldn't use it period. I was standing right there when they did.

    So again, their website says one thing and their clerk--who admitted after telling the guy "NO" that he wasn't up to snuff on the rules--said another thing.

    But I'm the whining, non-competitive problem here?

    Maybe you should actually research something before you comment on it AND throw insults at the poster...especially when he knows what he is talking about.
     
  14. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    Hey, why don't you watch the flames? There was post that the IM matches have added an unlimited category. I have shot several outdoor and indoor matches and I do know the rules, so trying to make someone look small is not the intent of posts. There's no need to get riled up over GSSF matches and start throwing flames. It's just not worth it. Does anyone else agree?
     
  15. domzilla9

    domzilla9 Phone Flinger

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    No, I haven't received my 2007 Glock Report and I haven't read it. I also didn't receive the memo mentioned in this thread. The docs on www.gssfonline.com only show the 2005 published rules. I have received my GSSF renewal card though.

    So I take it that there is a Unlimited classification in Indoor now. Great. I'll eat crow on that one.


    Target world evidently does have a problem in that whoever wrote the copy for their website butchered the explanation of a the common rule regarding scores. What the Target world website should have said was soemthing like this:

    - There are three meets in this match series. You must shoot in at least two of the three meets with the same glock model to complete the match, but you may shoot in all three meets if you wish. If you shoot a different Glock model in each of the three meets you will not complete the match.
    - At each meet you can shoot one or as many different glock models as you like.
    - Your first relay with a particular model will post your score-for-record with that model. Any additional relays shot with the same model (not necessarily the same gun, but the same model) will count only as practice. If you shoot three different glock models in the same meet you will post three different scores-for-record for that meet. If you shoot the same glock model three times, you will post only one score for record.
    - At the completion of the third meet your scores-for-record are sorted by Glock Model and your top two scores for that model are averaged to determine your final score for that Glock Model.

    That's a lot more wordy than what was written but it is accurate. And it makes sense.

    I am familiar with GSSF indoor rules. I've RO'd one by myself and assisted with others. The most gun models that I've personally seen shot by one competitor in one meet was seven, and it was by yours truly. Though I understand that Mr 500/50 at Blackwing commonly shoots five or more models in the same meet.

    At the last GSSF indoor match I shot two relays: one with a G17 (489) and one with a G21 (496). Both bone stock. I drove 35 minutes to shoot 100 rds of ammo. I've driven 45 minutes and shot 107 rounds of ammo in a match.

    Does Target world raffle a gun? One reason why you might want to buy practice only relays is that at ranges that I've shot at a practice relay gets you an extra ticket in the drawing.

    Typing in all caps is rude, dude. And contradicting yourself not only in the same thread but in the same post is just asinine. In your opening post, you say:

    and in your last post you said

    If it's an extended barrel (other than the 6" .45acp and 10mm hunting barrels), it's an aftermarket part, which puts in the unlimited class, right? Right.....
     
  16. Citizen Carrier

    Citizen Carrier Guest

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    Ah yes, rudeness.

    I suppose calling somebody a whiner, a person raised by wolves who has only recently started walking on hind legs, a novice/inexperienced shooter, lacking in common sense, and lacking in sportsmanship qualifies as civil discourse to you?

    If you want politeness, I suggest you enter a thread by first demonstrating some of it.

    And yet I contradict myself?

    Again, here is Target World's website quote on what constitutes "stock" and what doesn't.

    For the purposes of Target World’s GSSF Indoor Match, stock is defined to be any Glock with any modification, except for those Glocks with electronic, laser, or optical sights. Guns with electronic, laser, or optical sights may be used in the match but will not count towards the shooters overall score.

    You wrote:

    I did NOT contradict myself. I was pointing out that Target World was neither going by current GSSF rules concerning unlimited class OR it's own website concerning what constitutes stock.

    By GSSF rules, the guy could shoot that gun. By their range rules, that guy could shoot.

    I could hardly complain if they were using GSSF rules, right? I could hardly complain if they were at least sticking to their own rules, right?

    I think I have grounds for complaint when they aren't using EITHER set of rules and appear to be just making stuff up as they go along. I think anybody would have grounds for annoyance if they looked at the website, determined their Glock was fine to shoot, and then invested time out of their Saturday to show up and be told they can't shoot.

    That guy didn't have an electronic, optical or laser sight. Just notch and post.

    Well, as I said, I shoot at Blackwing Shooting Center, Lauhorner, and Target World. My scores are there for all to see and I've never shot more than 3 relays at any of them.

    http://www.lauhorner.com/Match_results_020307.html

    There are the only scores Lauhorner currently has up. That is from the first match in the current series. The second one hasn't been posted and I can't recall what I shot. In this match I came in 10th place with a 489-26X. I don't know why they said I used a 17L. I was using a 17C that time.

    http://www.blackwingsc.com/docs/Series_1.pdf

    That is the three match results of the last series at Blackwing. I came in 7th overall. The 430-14X was my absolute first time shooting the 17C and it was stock. I then followed up with a 490-34X and a 494-33X. Somebody told me about "trigger reset".

    http://www.targetworld.net/Spring 07 Mar 31 Final GSSF Scores.pdf

    As you can see there, I'm currently in 3rd place at Target World after Saturday's shoot. I managed that 478-26X with one relay with my G24C.

    The truth of the matter is that usually shoot my best score first anyway. But that isn't the point. I like shooting and I like competing and driving for any distance to shoot just one 50 round box of ammo is not that fun.

    And no, Target world doesn't offer you a better chance of winning a pistol if you shoot more practice rounds. Why would I want to practice after I've already shot for record? And for $11 I could purchase standard range time and shoot more ammunition and longer. It makes absolutely no sense to pay that kind of money to "practice" for a total elapsed shooting time of about 3 minutes or so when you could buy a half hour of range time for about the same amount of money.

    Finally, I don't recall ever shooting below 400. And for what it is worth, you will invariably lose to shooters with deeper pockets and more time because they usually use that money and time to prepare for the matches with more shots fired in practice. They'll start off "warmed up" moreso than others. That's life.
     
  17. domzilla9

    domzilla9 Phone Flinger

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    Some people don't own a shot timer and don't get to regularly shoot in any kind of match. So they want to shoot the course of fire a few times with the timer and the RO and get familiar with out how it works. Having a shooter on the line running a "practice only" relay takes up a slot that another competitor could be use to post a score for record. If practice relays were cheap, or could be counted for score, there are people who would spend the afternoon shooting relay after relay, sucking up the RO's time trying to post a better score. I'm not even remotely suggesting that they'd win the meet or the match by running several pratice relays and warming up to 500/50x. Most competitors with some experience and talent peak on their first or second relay anyway.

    Some people might shoot a certain glock model for a score, then shoot it again in a practice relay and then shoot their favorite glock model in a third relay for what they hope will be their best score-for-record.

    I asked how many relays it took for you to break 400 because the guys who whine about practice relays and aftermarket parts are usually frustrated shooters that don't place well.

    I don't know if this occurred to you at any point, but the competitors aren't the only people that spent their time and money to show up on a saturday for fun and safe shootin' match. The range employees and the RO could probably make more money bagging groceries than running a Glock Match. GSSF Indoor matches aren't huge money making opportunities and if you consider what they have to put up with in dealing with folks such as yourself I hardly see how it's worth it. Shoot as many times as you like and post only your best scores for the record? Come on. Ok, obviously you weren't raised by wolves so that only means that you don't have an excuse for your poor attitude.

    I'm tapping out and unsubscribed from the thread. Citizen wins!!
     
  18. glockess56

    glockess56 CLM

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    At Target World, one person can take a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place all at once. I've seen it happen in 2005 at least. One person did that with three different Glocks. It's taken as three different people, but one man took Group A 1, 2, 3.
     
  19. Citizen Carrier

    Citizen Carrier Guest

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    Hey, sorry you're tapping out. I don't know why you felt you initially needed to take that tone with me.

    I raised two objections, both of them stemming from what I observed to be Target World's deviation from their own posted rules and/or ignoring GSSF rules.

    Others in this thread have said that they also shoot at Target World and observed that regardless of how many times they shoot, their best scores get posted no matter if it was the first score they shot.

    So, to be told one thing and to have another thing happen is less that ideal. It lacks consistency.

    I witnessed a man being told he couldn't use his gun when by GSSF rules, he could, or by Target World's posted rules, he could.

    When I raised an objection to that on behalf of that shooter because I knew something incorrect was being done, I'd like to think I was doing the right thing. To be then told by the man making the statement that he didn't really know the rules, but he was sure the guy couldn't use that gun was just a little bit much to take.

    But you had to make this thread about me. My character. My experience. My sportsmanship. How much common sense I possess. Hell, you even brought my upbringing into it.

    And then when I responded to the tone you used, a tone that in the 19th Century would've called for pistols at dawn, you call me rude?

    Problem with the internet is that people write things to complete strangers and take such tones they would never say right to a person's face.

    When such things are directed at me, I generally direct them back.
     
  20. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    Domzilla9,

    Let's stay on topic and cease with personal attacks. The GSSF Forum is a friendly place, and I would like to keep it that way.