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Nobel winner says Israel a threat to world peace

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by teumessian_fox, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    It quite an interesting debate but it gets sidetracked. But if we can create "life" that interacts inside a computer (think SIMs), maybe we are just one level up from them. We think we have freewill, but maybe were are just some computer fantasy that some geeks at even bigger computer terminals are using to have fun with....

    Actually, if we can create life (think cloning, in vivo fertilization, artifical intelligence, etc), that means its not far fetched to believe that there is something that is greater than us that can do even more than we can..

    -Dana
     
  2. sputnik767

    sputnik767

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    I think that outside the religious minority (Jewish and Christian), you're not going to find Jews claiming that the land is theirs because God gave it to them. I certainly don't feel that way. Most Jews inside and outside Israel that support Israel, claim it because a part of this land was set up as a Jewish state in 1948 by the powers that controlled it, and given to the new Israeli government to defend. And they defended it quite well. You deserve a territory for as long as you can defend it, and by that notion, Israel deserves to exist as much as the US deserves to exist. And while Israel's past is not exactly squeaky-clean (although not nearly what our resident anti-semite Kev claims), our past is not squeaky-clean either. Any land that Israel captured was captured in a defensive war, and there is no reason why any of it should be given back outside of an agreement that Israel is happy with. The losing side does not generally get the upper hand in negotiation, and this case is no different. However, there was a plan put forth by Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton at Camp David in 2000, which was the best plan that Palestinians could ever hope to get. They got virtually all of the West Bank and Gaza, and even parts of Jerusalem. However, the Palestinians rejected he plan. And it's not like Israel has never traded land for a peace deal. They returned the entire Sinai Peninsula that they captured from Egypt in 1973, in exchange for a piece of paper declaring peace between the two nations and Israel's recognition by the Egyptian government. And the Sinai actually has oil.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012

  3. KalashniKEV

    KalashniKEV

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    I like the kooky turn this thread took...

    :supergrin:
     
  4. MrGlock21

    MrGlock21

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    Well put, great post. :goodpost:

    On a side note, and obviously it has nothing to do with G.Grass (as so many threads derail in forums) sometimes I find myself explaining timelines, in terms of what land/territory nations/peoples rightfully own etc.

    Whenever Mexicans claim that Texas is actually Mexican land I tell them to take it easy and knock it off or even FO because Mexico is actually Austrian territory since Archduke Ferdinand Maximilian, from the House of Habsburg, was proclaimed Emperor of Mexico on Apr 10th 1864 etc.

    Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't.
     
  5. John Galt

    John Galt Anti-Federalist

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    Really?

    They may not have hijacked planes, but I suggest you research Irgun, the King David Hotel bombing and Deir Yassin.

    Some people may or may not agree with the tactics used by Irgun (one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter), but the Jews are hardly saints when it comes to targeting non-combatants.
     
  6. Eurodriver

    Eurodriver

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    Lets not forget outright kidnapping.

    Adolf Eichmann, anyone?

    (And no, I'm not saying Eichmann was a saint - but the fact that he was kidnapped by the Mossad, tried and executed in Israel for crimes committed by the Nazis in Germany [Eichmann never killed anyone directly] is pretty ****ty)
     
  7. JMS

    JMS 02

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    I knew from some of your previous posts about leaving your wife/child, running off to Thailand to marry a child bride, etc you were no genius. This response puts the final nail in the coffin. :whistling:
     
  8. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    This is actually what I believe. The "only" problem with using the 1948 creation date is that it was by UN resolution 181. If a person accepts that as rule of law, then all other UN resolutions must be accepted also. That is where some of the divergence happens.



    I would bet that Native Americans would 100% agree that the USAs past is not squeaky clean and what "white man" did to them was almost genocide. However, it is what it is and history cannot be changed. Had we not played the game as we did, a much different version of history may well exist.


    Negotiations and diplomacy never make both sides 100% happy. If one side is really happy then it is not a negotiation (or the other side is stupid).

    Really, there is no solution for this. The land for peace will never work. Israel cannot give up enough land for peace. Give and inch and the Palestinians want a mile. There are also other actors in the mid east who use (stir up) Palestinians for their own uses.

    Each side will claim they are acting in a defensive manner. That is what Iran is doing. There is some legitimacy to having two nuclear powers (USA and Israel) not wanting your (Iran) govt in place that tends to make a country want a nuclear deterrent.

    What the real issue is with the Palestinians is they are simply stupid. Their best option would be to negotiate to become Arab Muslim citizens of Israel with the benefits that that affords them. Think of it like Mexicans. Many of them have figured out it is better to come to the USA and if they can be citizens, better yet. The Arabs are not helping the Palestinians (unless you consider helping keeping them in a constant state of war).

    However, with respect to Iran I see why their government wants nukes. I think the difference is the USA and Israel want to see their government gone and not the people. I think in general, Israelis, Jews, Americans, and Christians have never called for the elimination of the Persian people; “we” would actually like to see them freed from the oppression of an oppressive government.

    -Dana
     
  9. Halojumper

    Halojumper

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    Good post
     
  10. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    I very much CAN say that what someone chooses to remain silent on speaks volumes about their beliefs, and I can say it because it is true.

    Your logic above is a fallacy. Guenter chooses to weigh in against Israel with critical poems, but when Iran was openly and actively calling for the ANNIHILATION of the Jewish state, his silence was absolutely deafening.

    When one chooses to publicly weigh in on a topic, but only does so selectively and in a wholly one-sided manner, it is both legitimate and correct to draw conclusions from both the words they speak, and the words they very selectively avoid.

    Regarding Sudan, if I chose to weigh in on that topic, but did so in a flagrantly one-sided fashion, continually criticizing Christians in the Sudan while refusing to comment at all on the "Janjaweed" militias that hunt those Christians like animals, you would very correctly conclude from my lopsided commentary that I have a bone to pick with Sudanese Christians.

    Why should Guenter be held to a different standard?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  11. KalashniKEV

    KalashniKEV

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    Good post, except for one point:

    Exactly.

    Exactly.

    How is it that you're capable of rational thinking in the first two examples, but fail to see that Israeli Government holds no legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinians?
     
  12. kirgi08

    kirgi08 Watcher. Silver Member

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    The UN is Illegal in comparison ta the COTUS.'08.
     
  13. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    I am saying what is best for them.

    It best to live in a stable country that has a thriving economy.

    For example, I am not sure how legitimate Algerians in France see the french governement (they are called black feet by the french), but if I were a blackfeet, I would rather live in France than Algeria.

    Just as if I were a Mexican living in Jaurez, I would see a great benefit to getting into El Paso.

    -Dana
     
  14. Natty

    Natty

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    I would say that Iran processing nuclear weapons is a greater threat.
     
  15. sputnik767

    sputnik767

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    Yep, I agree.
     
  16. KalashniKEV

    KalashniKEV

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    So you'd rather be a happy slave?

    That's a sad opinion...

    It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
     
  17. tsmo1066

    tsmo1066 Happy Smiley

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    With all due respect, these discussions around the 1948 UN resolution and other conversations regarding Israel’s legitimacy are little more than hollow sideshows, the sorts of arguments that (to use Lenin’s old term) “useful idiots” engage in to distract attention away from the real political agenda.

    Israel’s enemies have been absolutely clear on what they really want, and it’s not a reduction in Israel’s borders, or the accommodation of displaced “Palestinians”. Israel’s enemies are fighting to DRIVE THE JEWS INTO THE SEA and sadly, Israel’s enemies don’t even bother to try to keep this goal a secret.

    The PLO includes this goal in their own covenant. Iran’s President Ahmenijad proudly proclaimed their goal of annihilating Jerusalem to the entire world, and in spite of these repeated, forceful and public declarations, some blind (or just plain anti-semitic) fools insist on pretending that what is actually being discussed is nothing more than a mere border adjustment or the relocation of some refugees.

    Israel’s enemies are not fighting to enforce UN resolutions. They are fighting for nothing short of “Holocaust, Act II”.
     
  18. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    I see more freedoms and opportunties in Israel than in Syria and most other Arab countries.

    Which would I rather live in? Iran or Israel. Israel for sure. I would be jailed or executed for my opinions in many Arab countries.

    -Dana
     
  19. Geko45

    Geko45 Smartass Pilot CLM

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. sputnik767

    sputnik767

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    This is an excellent point, and one that is unfortunately lost on, or worse, ignored by many people.