Oh wow, I would have to look at this for sure.
Oh wow, I would have to look at this for sure.
Way too light but I'd love to see a gel test. Probably about 8" of penetration but one hell of a cavity.
The same Xtreme Defender bullet (which is made by LeHigh) out of a 'weak' .380 ACP penetrates 14 inches.
What makes you think that the same bullet out of a .357 SIG (with almost 1000 fps more) makes only 8 inches?
On top of it, Underwood loads hotter than LeHigh.
I say this round penetrates well over 20 inches in 10% gel with a comparable wound channel to a HP.
Underwood states 18 inches penetration with 635 ft/lbs of energy, this round need a serious look.
They have a 9x25 Dillon 90gr that does 2000/800. Got a couple boxes of this, just looking for something worthy to shoot.
I'm always skeptical of really light for caliber offerings. Having shot some things with very light but fast rounds they just don't seem to hit with the same authority. Kind of like a flea running into an elephants ass. It doesn't really matter how fast its going, its just a tiny flea.
Interesting that the 357 Magnum, 357 Sig, 9X25 Dillon and 10 mm now have modern effective ammo that reaches rifle velocities thanks to small select companies that are not afraid to offer new products. This in contrast to the larger ammo companies that are lowering ammo velocities and only developing new sales gimmicks. The world of guns and ammo is moving forward with new products and ideals. The big ammo companies are still trying to figure out how to make .22 ammo! If it were not for CCI and imports we would still have a .22 shortage and high prices.
I don't doubt the Lehigh bullets penetrate, but I don't think they will work as advertised. I suspect the design of the bullet takes advantage of the properties of gel to show a hydraulic force that probably won't translate into increased wound diameter. I think they're mostly expensive CNC FMJ bullets with some fancy cuts on them and an expensive pricetag. Color me skeptical.
What purpose does an extremely light bullet have except for possibly a few specialized applications?
For purely self-defense I will stick to 125- through 150-grain bullets in .357sig.
357 Magnum has been around for a long time.
Lots of light to heavy rounds used on the street.
125 gr at 1,450 fps seems like the sweet spot.
Underwood 357 Sig is advertised at 1,475.
But regularly exceeds 1,500 in actual chronograph tests.
My Hk P2000 and Sig P229 should be very close to Magnum Force.
High tech, street proven, bullets like Speer GDHP.
Are icing on the cake.
Call me Old School.
But until I see proven street performance?
I'm not buying in...
Because of their different designs and functions it is difficult to compare Lehigh's
terminal performance with that of traditional bullets except for the comparison of actual use in SD situations. However the interesting thing about this Underwood offering is pure and simple speed, rifle velocity out of a handgun the size of a G32! Even greater velocity out of a G31 or G22 with a 357 Sig barrel also consider the use of a 6 inch barrel in these guns. The estimated velocity for this round out of a 6 in. barrel is around 2300 fps with 765 ft./lbs. of energy! I have placed an order with Underwood for their 125gr Gold Dot and 65gr XD 357 Sig rounds I consider both to be valuable. For now the XD will be my anti barrier round until it is proven in other areas the Gold Dots will be carried.
I would like to see this bullet next to a normal, 115-147 grain bullet. It seems that a bullet of .35 cal but only weighing 65 grains would be very short with very poor sectional density. I wonder how it'd fair versus bone.
Lehigh stuff goes pretty deep.
Have you tried any of their 300 grain brass bullets? Pretty nice.
The bullet would not have good sectional density but since it is made of copper which is lighter than lead the length should still be good. There are a lot of unknowns about this round but what is known is Underwood gives a penetration depth of 17.5 inches in gel, it has more ft/lbs of energy (635 ft/lbs) than a 357 Magnum and at 2100 fps should have a hydrostatic shock value very near that of a rifle. If it were to hit a bone and tumble it should still have the bullet length and velocity needed to allow the tumble to do a good deal of damage. But the key to this rounds success should be its velocity and fast energy dump. I would not want to go hog hunting with it but limit its use to BG shooting.
Makes sense, didn't even bother to think about the big difference in density and was trying to figure what the heck that bullet would look like. More ammo options is a good thing, always good to see manufacturers trying different things too.
No I have not, I usually don't bother with fancy expensive machined bullets. Though I do want to try some of the 110gr aluminum CQB bullets sometime.
That velocity out of a pistol (auto) is impressive. Hope to see some gel testing videos.
Not only gel but some barrier tests are also in order for this speedster!
Glock 40 w/ 357sig barrel might be my next toys... :O)
Consider though that a solid/fluted copper bullet will be longer for weight than a lead core/jacketed. The SD would probably be close to a 125gr JHP?? Near rifle vel adds compression & high speed energy transfer. Maybe better, only actually live thing shooting will prove it.
My thoughts also Underwood states a penetration depth of 17.5 inches that means a dump of 635 ft/lbs of energy in a penetration depth recommended by the FBI. To put that in perspective the 357 Magnum has 585 ft/lbs of energy so yes this little round could be nasty indeed.
I look forward to seeing some testing of this bullet, especially to see how it stands up to hitting something hard, like bone, car door, etc.
That's some serious velocity.
And that is out of a 4 inch barrel with extended barrels the velocity goes up even more.
Not caring about this stuff.
It is a gimmick and anyone who buys it and carries it is a fool.
Blast from the past. I remember that.
They ever follow up and obtain any testing from the ammo company to determine the pressures being developed?
Probably a good thing it never really caught on. Probably a good thing it never caught on. The sheer velocity might require a higher threat level of vest nowadays
Remember that really high velocity S&W (branded) .357 Magnum load from the 70's? I think it pushed a 90gr JSP to more than 2000fps out of a either a 4" or 6" test barrel. That load was behind the restriction against using any factory ammunition that exceeded 2000fps in our service revolvers back in the 70's & 80's.
Here's a pic of the bullet:
In 1982 I shot deer with a very fast 55gr Nosler Solid Base bullet
going around 3800 fps, it was just like P O Ackley described in
his books, devastating.
Since then we have shot deer with the 55gr Hor SP W/C at
3000 fps. At around 125 yards, through and through on side
shots and on one shot that entered well behind the shoulder
and came to rest under the skin up on the neck, that one
was around 18'' of penetration.
You don't know until you try.
I was thinking this round reminds me of the 22TCM. And wondering how both of these rounds work on animals?
Basically what we know is there is no question about how this round will perform like there is with hollow point ammo. There is no need for expansion designs or questions about plugging in heavy fabric. The Lehigh bullet is obviously barrier blind and designed to offer superior tactical penetration. This with 635 ft/lbs of energy, 18 inches of penetration and enough velocity plus bullet design to deliver a significant level of shock all out of a 4 inch barrel handgun. This round is unproven but IMHO has the potential of matching or surpassing the best hollow points in overall performance. I guess use on animals will be our best initial measure of performance.
My post was mostly for the light for caliber bullets, like
the arcane bullet, they can be great for close range and
even defeat ballistic armor, sometimes.
I try to not speak in absolutes.
I may be reading your post wrong so I apologize if that's the case.
SD remains the same for the bullet regardless of composition. So the 65gr .355 will always have a SD of .074 and a 125gr .355 will be .142 until it expands. But the profile will be close to a 125 so tumbling and yawing will be better for the 65gr than if it were a shorter bullet.
But if you are stating that the 65gr bullet will perform similar to the 125jhp since its running rifle velocities and doesn't need the expansion you may be onto something as the temporary and permanent cavities form HV rounds is impressive. Once the 125gr jhp expands to .500 the SD is nearly identical to the 65gr solid bullet. Either way as you stated only live testing will reveal the truth.
It is not a hollow point bullet. Penetration would be greater.
I can see you are well prepared for zombies! Excellent evaluation that pretty much confirms what I suspected as far as velocity, Underwood living up to expectations in performance. That said I think this round is best served by use in 4.5 inch and longer barrels including the 5.3 inch length which maximizes the hydrostatic effect. Great report thanks for sharing!
I Use My H&K HK 45 strictly and ONLY with .45 Super rounds by Underwood Ammo. My Glock 20 Gen 4 is stippled by a professional artists' hands, but 357 Sig is its currently chambered barrel. "wildcat" ammo from manufacturers (it does cost though) is my jam. I'm curious about written experiences with the 9x25 Dillon and a full sized glock i. e. Glock 20, 21, 17 etc. I hate the muzzle flash and 10mm feeling that a flashbang went off like a Call of Dutu or something. Too much blast the 10mm. Also I want to know about .40 super recoil opinions
All the larger capacity rounds like the 10mm, 9x25, 460 rowland, 40 super ect can be "flashbang" rounds when loaded to full tilt with some of the slower powders. Some manufacturers will run flash surpressed powders which will help with the flash but they will still be pretty loud.
Recoil is subjective, I don't find much out of a glock to be heavy recoil but im used to shooting 454s and 475 linebaugh revolvers. If you can handle the recoil of the 10mm loaded full house, you shouldn't have an issue with the 9x25 or 40 super.
Havent seen any gel tests on the internet. Wonder who will be the first to report?
At that speed it may be able to defeat some body armor.
I think it will no doubt defeat all levels of soft body armor and still be an effective fight stopper. But seeing it tested would be interesting since both this round and the 2000 fps 10 mm round have not been tested.
I requested that he test the new 65gr ED. He said he would see if he could do it. Asked that he use the current 90 and 115 Ed and EP and FMJ AND HP to see the results.
Should be interesting
Yes these rounds deserve to be tested to see what they have to offer. Both the 2100 fps 357 Sig and the 2000 fps 10mm could be game changers.
Now that was awesome, love my .357 sig round.
Yes, his tests of 9, 357, 40 and 45 were eye opening. The 357 looks to be more effective that the others.
I have now ordered a 357 Sig barrel for my gen3 23.
Remember, when it comes to force, F=ma. Traveling at 2100 fps it will have no trouble exceeding 12 inches. None!
Underwood states the penetration depth of this round is 17.5 inches and that it meets FBI protocol! It's the only non expanding round I would be ok carrying for SD.