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New Spring change POI

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by dbow, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. dbow

    dbow

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    I finally got to shoot my G20 with my new dpm recoil spring, but now my POI has changed dramatically.

    Before i added the spring system my groups were always about 1-2 inches above my front sight, now they are below my front sight about 4-5 inches! I'm shooting the same ammo, underwood 200 grain JHP.

    Anybody else experience this?
     
  2. blastfact

    blastfact

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    No ,,,, It's you. As if you had to ask.

    I've never shot a round through my useless whore sloppy gen 3 euro thrash barrel. yeah know the one Glock rips you off on.

    But my spec on cheap *** LW barrel is bad ***. and a nut buster. Forget the reloading books... Lets go nuke!
     

  3. dbow

    dbow

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    yeah i need to get a kkm 6" barrel. I'll have to go out again and see where i'm at. I never had to use a rest with this gun but i'm going to just to see where it's at.
     
  4. Any Cal.

    Any Cal.

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    It is going to do the same thing regardless of barrel. Try some other bullet weights and see what happens.
     
  5. OregonG20

    OregonG20

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    You are hilarious. What makes you hate the Glock barrel so much?
     
  6. dbow

    dbow

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    It very well could be me, but i just can't believe the difference. I'm going to try some 180 grain and see what happens. Thanks!
     
  7. dbow

    dbow

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    Here is how my shot sequence went . Since i'm working a mag reload, i load two mags with two rounds each. Shoot two rounds, drop mag, load mag, shoot one round, stop. (Yes i need to get 3 mags)
    First 3 shots were grouped within the size of a baseball. The next 47 shots were low 4-5, sometimes 6-7 inches low!!! Can't put my finger on it and it's bugging me cuz i ain't got a lot of money to be dumping out these expensive rounds.

    Here is my form, feet shoulder length apart, knees bent, one eye closed, focus on front sight, arms locked, push pull, left thumb up, pad of first finger on trigger, squeeze trigger and hold, click and shoot for second round. 3-5 seconds between each shot.

    Any advice you could give me? I'm really thinking about getting a .22 to help with my form too.
     
  8. Opie 1 Kenopie

    Opie 1 Kenopie Regular Guy

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    I'm a big advocate of leaving things STOCK. Especially if money is a concern. It looks like you didn't have these problems with the stock setup. Unbox your Glock, punch out the plastic dovetail protectors, hammer on some steel sights and shoot the Mutha.
     
  9. dbow

    dbow

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    I've thought about that too. I know that i need to be around 700 ft pounds of energy to hunt but at the same time who in the hell is really going to look or care. I was looking a HSA ammo that was cheap 10mm around 600ft pounds.

    What do you mean about the steal sights? Do you have a recommendation?
     
  10. Opie 1 Kenopie

    Opie 1 Kenopie Regular Guy

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    A stock G20 will EXCEED 700 ft. lbs. of energy with quite a few loads. Underwood's 135 gr. Noslers come to mind. TNoutdoors has a great collection of videos on YouTube that test these rounds and I recall several climbing over 700 ft. Lbs.

    Steel sights= anything but the stock plastic ones.
    I use 10-8 Performance, Trijicon, Novak and even Glock factory steel night sights. All are DRASTICALLY better and more durable than the little plastic Lego pieces than come stuck on your Glock.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  11. dbow

    dbow

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    The 135 sound good but does it hit your frame? The bonded 155 looks like it would be killer too? I shot stock with the 200's and had no probs but it left one hell of a circle mark on the frame.

    Do you ignore this or do you find it doesn't hit as hard with a smaller grain bullet?

    Thanks for the sight ideas? I'm def going to check it out.
     
  12. Opie 1 Kenopie

    Opie 1 Kenopie Regular Guy

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    I've never noticed any frame bashing on my G20SF. I havent shot a whole lot of hot loads through mine yet, but you could test them, shoot lighter stuff for range time, and then load up your hot 135s or 155s for hunting/carry. I was pretty impressed with that Underwood stuff making 735 FP. Definitely a show stopper in a carry piece!
     
  13. TDC20

    TDC20

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    I'm not claiming to be an expert, cause I'm telling you straight up I'm not. All I can relate is my own experiences learning how to shoot "hard recoiling" handguns.

    It sounds to me a lot like what I used to struggle with when I was learning to shoot the .44mag. First shot would be dead center, then after that, shots all over the place, but mostly low. The reason was that first shot was relaxed and controlled, with a steady grip and a good trigger pull that didn't move the revolver and sight alignment while the hammer fell. After that first shot, the anticipation of the recoil caused me to be pulling down on the gun in when I pulled the trigger. The way I finally broke myself of this bad habit was to do lots of dry fire. At the range, I would only load 4, or 5 cylinders. Then the challenge was to keep the sights steady so that when the empty cylinder came up, the sight alignment didn't move when the trigger was pulled.

    This may or may not be your problem, but it sure sounds similar. Try this next time you go to the range. Put your new recoil spring in and do some dry fire at your target, say 20 trigger pulls where the sights stay on target when the trigger breaks. Then load one round and fire it and see if you have the low impact problem. I'm guessing it will hit POA. Then change to the stock spring and repeat. My guess is that it will hit the same POA as the new recoil spring, or at worst, you will be shooting low with the stock spring because you are still anticipating recoil.

    If you reload, or have a friend who reloads, make up a few "dummy" rounds and load them up randomly in your magazines. This will give you a similar effect as the empty cylinder trick with the revolver. It also doubles as a good tactical malfunction drill.

    Bad habits are hard to unlearn. A decent .22 might help you to unlearn the nasty recoil anticipation habit, if that is indeed what is causing your problem.
     
  14. dbow

    dbow

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    Thanks tdc20, that's great advice. I could see that being the problem because (and i know i'm gonna get railed for this one) the G20 is my first and only pistol at this time. Yes i know i should have started with a .22, but you try and tell my wife i need two guns, one to learn and one to hunt. Cheeze she'd be all over that.

    I really like the idea of putting a couple snap caps in the gun just to see how i react. I was watching the handgun show a while back and saw the host shoot a 50cal pistol, it didn't fire or something and i remember how bad he flinched, i bet i'm doing the same thing.

    with money kinda tight right now i think i'll try the snap caps and 135 grain underwoods and see what happens. I assume that going from 200 to 135 should be a little noticeable?

    As far as going back to the original spring, i think i will do that as well. Kinda pissed about it cuz i do have a 22lb spring with steel rod and now the dpm spring system. However i hate to say this but as soon as i starting switching springs i had feed failures and i did have a failure to eject with the dpm. Oh well, maybe i'll sell them both and buy more ammo.
     
  15. Any Cal.

    Any Cal.

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    You might try another brand of ammo that isn't loaded as hot. Or spend 2-300 and get started reloading, it will cut your ammo costs by half or more, and you can make loads as heavy or light as you want.
     
  16. copo9560

    copo9560

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    Try your original spring and a box of Federal 180 grain 40 S&W ammo from Walmart (the cheap stuff). Not ideal for your G20 but it will run and has far less recoil than full tilt 10mm ammo. If you are flinching, this will help a bunch.
     
  17. dbow

    dbow

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    I was actually looking at Hunting Shack Ammo. They are selling blemished rounds for under $20 for a box of 50. Since yesterday i've been dry firing the precious moment dolls off of my wifes china hutch. :) I'm totally flinching and pushing the gun down, i can already tell. Sometimes i pull to the left and down too. grrr
     
  18. oldman11

    oldman11

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    Don't lock your elbows.
     
  19. dbow

    dbow

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    how far do you bend in?
     
  20. TDC20

    TDC20

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    For me, the Glock trigger has been one of the most difficult to master, but it can be done. Here's what I've found and how it works for me...

    Imagine a line or axis from where your finger touches the trigger, through the center of the pistol's grip, to the center of the back of the pistol grip where the web between your thumb and forefinger touches the grip when you hold the pistol. That is the axis to apply trigger force on when pulling the trigger. Anything left, right, up, or down, off of that axis, is going to cause a shift in the pistol's point of aim when the trigger breaks. When you do your dry fire practice, consciously imagine that axis, and apply trigger force ONLY directly on that axis. When you do this correctly, there will be no shift in point of aim when the trigger breaks, because there are no forces acting in any other direction on the pistol, only the force between your trigger finger and the web of your shooting hand, directly on this axis. Once you get this to work with your shooting grip, start practicing with only one hand, and continue to loosen your grip while dry firing. If you are doing this right, and applying force only on the appropriate axis, you should be able to hold the Glock with only the thumb and forefinger of your shooting hand, and be able to pull the trigger back along that axis, and have no shift in sight picture when the trigger breaks. Once you can do that consistently, your trigger pull problem should be solved. Keep practicing this technique until it becomes so natural that you no longer have to think about it, or the imaginary axis. If you start having problems again, go back to this dry fire exercise until you work through the issue again. Dry fire is effective training because it allows you to repetitively reinforce the correct habits of sight alignment, trigger pull, and follow through. Follow through is successful when you are maintaining your hold (sight alignment) throughout the trigger pull process with no change in POA (point of aim). You want to do this until the entire CORRECT process is so engrained that it is controlled by your subconscious, or to say it another way, you don't have to think about how to do it "right" anymore, you just do it right.

    One of the first things I did to my G20 was to install a 3.5lb trigger connector. After learning how to properly operate the trigger using this technique, I can now shoot the stock trigger, slow fire, as well as the 3.5lb trigger. While I have no argument about a 3.5lb trigger being easier to shoot "accurately" than a >5lb trigger, the fact is that in the hands of someone properly trained, there really isn't that much of a difference. IMO, light triggers are a "crutch" for people who can't or won't learn how to operate a reasonably heavier trigger pull. I used to think I needed a 2lb trigger pull on all my rifles until I started shooting high power competition, where the CMP requires a minimum 4lb trigger pull on a service rifle. After a few seasons, many hours of dry fire, and thousands of rounds downrange, I learned how to shoot that 4.5lb trigger as good as any other rifle I owned, and found myself re-adjusting some of my hunting rifles to a bit heavier pull.

    Shooting is not like riding a bicycle...you will lose skills without practice. I continue to do dry fire practice just because of the convenience factor (I don't have to travel anywhere and the cost is zero) and the importance of a correct trigger pull to hitting your target.