New PM40....perhaps I should have bought a Glock

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by eor, Oct 15, 2005.

  1. eor

    eor

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    I wish I had found this board before I purchased the PM40. I based my purchase on the desire to have a .40 more easily concealable than the Glock 27. From the articles I read in various shooting magazines, it appeared that the PM40 would be a good purchase.

    I am now attempting to obtain a return authorization from Kahr for several problems I have experienced, including...

    The threaded end of the recoil spring guide fell off after 60 or so rounds. After spending about two hours on my hands and knees at the range I somehow found it and put it back on the quide, using the Loctite that should have been applied at the factory, IMO.

    I experienced numerous failures to feed, even using 180 grain FMJ ammo. When I switched to Winchester JHP, the failure rate increased and I had three misfires. Even though the striker fell, there was absolutely no indentation on the primer on two rounds and a very light strike on the third. I think the firing pin block is allowing the striker to fall, even though the slide is not full closed. If that is the case, I believe this is a very dangerous condition.

    I could see and hear the slide slowly "kerchunking" into place at times.

    I experienced several "stove pipe" failures in which the spent casings were mangled and jammed in the breech.

    When using the extended magazine, the slide will not lock back after the final round.

    When using the shorter magazine, the final round consistently fails to feed.

    When cycling the slide slowly by hand, I noticed that the slide binds or catches on the end of the recoil spring guide. IMO, the guide is moving around too much.

    I was determined to get 200 rounds through it to see if the situation improved, but after trying three different brands of commercial JHP ammo in addition to my handloaded FMJ, I came to the conclusion that these were either basic design or quality control issues that have little to do with break-in. As I approached 200 rounds, the failures seemed to become more frequent.

    On the bright side, accuracy at 15 yards was surprisingly good for such a small pistol.

    I've purchased a couple dozen pistols over the years, both production models and custom pieces. This is without a doubt the most problem plagued pistol out of the box I have ever seen.

    After searching through the threads here, I have read that Kahr's customer service is good. I have also read of numerous trips back to the factory to get them running and the company or owners finally giving up.

    I don't need this aggravation. I needed a reliable CCW pistol.

    Right now, I would have to advise anyone considering a PM40 to reconsider.

    I apologize for my first post here being a rant of sorts, but if I had access to the information I have seen here, I would have gone elsewhere for a .40 CCW pistol. Hopefully I can help someone else.

    I will report back in to see how or if Kahr handles the situation. I'll give them a fair shake here if they take care of me and let you know.
     
  2. cjblackmon

    cjblackmon 2 Alpha!

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    I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate events at the range with your PM40 and your being unhappy with it. I can totally understand how you feel, I wouldn't want to spend the money on a new pistol only to have it malfunction and act up as yours has. I have owned my PM40 for about two months now. I really enjoy it and it is very comfortable to just throw in my pocket and walk out the door in a hurry. I won't lie, I had to send mine back to Kahr (I bought mine used) and they were more than pleased to help me and make things right. They had mine back within four days.

    I know it's new, and it's bull**** to have to deal with, especially for a new gun. Just try to consider this, it's a very small gun, and designed to work with a couple of inches of slide movement, as well as cycle a hot round, either 9mm or .40, and shoot accurately. I'm not trying to make excuses for Kahr, just ask for your understanding and patience, if you send it back, let them perform a few demon tweaks to it, I'm sure that you'd be quite happy and confident in carrying your PM40! More so than a Glock. Yes the Glock is a great gun (I have a few myself) it's pale in comparison to the concealability of the PM series!!

    Call Kahr at 508-795-3919 ask for Brian, he'll take care of you.
     

  3. eor

    eor

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    Thanks for the encouragement.

    I sent an email to Kahr regarding the lost recoil spring guide piece Wednesday afternoon. I have never received a response. I found it Thursday.

    I attempted to get through to Kahr Technical Support / Customer Service several times late Friday afternoon [ but still during their regular business hours] and was redirected to a voice mail. All I needed was a return authorization. I could have shipped it Friday afternoon and been one day closer to having it repaired [hopefully].

    I carry a cheap Kel Tec .380 in the summer and had recently purchased a SA Ultra Compact .45 for the cooler months. Ironically, the Ultra also had to be returned to the factory for a manufacturing flaw that made it horribly inaccurate. It was reliable, though. ;Q

    I bought the PM 40 as an upgrade to the Kel Tec and to carry for a month or so while I wait on the .45 to be repaired. Now I'm out around $1000 and still relying on the $175 Kel Tec for "on body" CCW.

    It seems that these manufacturers should include a prepaid Fed Ex or UPS shipping label for the inevitable returns.

    :soap:
     
  4. army_eod

    army_eod US Army Retired, EOD, PM, PMP

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    Glocks rule, PM 40s drool.
     
  5. ericboo

    ericboo

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    I was also probably on hold calling about my PM9, the same time Friday.

    I am also having problems with mine, albeit not as bad as yours. I am in the same boat about being aggrevated. I bought mine early to requalify in the spring and I will be damned if I will stand in front of my superiors or carry a gun I don't trust.

    I am calling Kahr Monday morning as well. I cannot lie that it is very nice being able to carry it in my pocket, which I do, but I don't go without my Sig.

    I hope we both have a positive outcome.
     
  6. cjblackmon

    cjblackmon 2 Alpha!

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    Eor and ericboo,

    This is a good trick to reach a live person 100% of the time (except after business hours of course).

    Call Kahr, instead of dialing through the automated system for Customer Service or Technical Support, Press the selection button for Sales or for Kahr Shop, when the girl answers, ask her to transfer you to Brian.

    Works everytime!!!!!!!
     
  7. AZ Traveler

    AZ Traveler

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    I have used #5 the selection for all other inquiries. It has worked for me most everytime.
     
  8. Rockets

    Rockets Silver Member

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    It took three PM40's for me to get a solid one. Now at about 600 rounds no failures other than the break in. If you really like the size, stick with the trouble of sending one or two back. I know this is not the way it should be, but now I would not sell the PM40 at twice the price. Also I found it help a ton to have an iron grip on the PM40 compared to the PM9, hold that ring finger and the one above very tight to the grip. It took mine about 250 rounds to break in solid as a rock.

    Rockets Out......
     
  9. eor

    eor

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    It is good to hear that Kahr has been willing make things right for people. The dealer I bought it from suggested that we might return it to his distributor as a defective unit and attempt a refund. I don't see that happening and I could not in good conscience sell it to someone in its current condition for anything more than a fraction of what I paid, so it seems like I am stuck with Kahr for the time being.

    In the meantime, I guess I'll look at yet another couple of CCW options. My wife has her CCW license so she can have whatever is left over when the warranty repair shuffle is done.
     
  10. warmrain

    warmrain

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    If given the chance Kahr will make this right, either by repair or failing that, complete replacement (they have done this for me). They have not failed anyone that I know about and certainly not me. You are not "stuck" with them. Give Dottie a call and calmly discuss the situation... Extension 331.

    Best,
     
  11. Rockets

    Rockets Silver Member

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    Ask for Stephen, He's the king and got mine working, I put another 50 rounds through it today no problems. They will pre pay shipping and actually call and have Fed Ex stop to pick it up so have it ready with a note inside telling what the problems are.

    Fed Ex showed up both times withing a few hours after calling Stephen.

    I paid nothing and did not have to go anywhere to ship it. I just had to box it, put on the address and return authorization number on the outside. Took about two weeks each time to get it back.

    Not the way it should be as far as many people having problems but the return process is painless. Stick with it if you really like the concept of the gun and you will get there.

    The only thing that I got kind of sick of was breaking in three PM 40's. The ammo costs and the fact it's a bit hard on the hands. The third one had just a new slide (the whole thing) on my old frame and even that had to be broken in. Other than the jams in the first 200 rounds when I would clean it every 50 rounds the plastic shavings were the clue, once broken in there should be very little or no plastic shavings. And even though they say 200 rounds both my PM40 and PM9 took about 230-280 rounds before they became flawless. Though after about 100-150 rounds I could tell I was getting somewhere as the jams became much less frequent and all of one nature.

    Rockets Out......
     
  12. warmrain

    warmrain

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    It's my understanding that Stephen recently left Kahr...
     
  13. rcsc514

    rcsc514

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    I feel your pain. The first time, Kahr had my PM40 for 3 weeks. Came back, same problems. The second time they had it for 2 weeks. Came back, everthing OK now. I too don't like the agravation that you have to go thru to get these $500 + guns working right. They should work out of the box for the price they charge. However, I really like the size, weight and the look and now it works just fine. I just got done putting another 100 rounds thru today without any failures at all. If you like the gun, be patient and send it back. Kahr will evetually get it right.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. eor

    eor

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    The PM40 SHOULD be close to the perfect CCW/BUG gun, especially for people like me with smaller hands.

    The recoil does bite but this isn't a plinking/pleasure/competition pistol. That's allot of useful energy coming out of a small, lightweight platform. If they can get it [or another one] reliable [defined by me as 100 rounds with no FTF's or FTE's] I'll carry it everyday. I have already ordered and received two IWB holsters for it...one for left hand draw when I'm riding my bike.

    As far as accuracy goes... I was impressed. This is from 10 yards, slow fire and off hand, using handloaded 180 grain FMJ [5.1 gr. Vihtavouri N320]

    [​IMG]
     
  15. eor

    eor

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    I called Kahr this morning, but got Dottie's voicemail. I then got the switchboard operator and was transferred to Brian.

    He gave me a return authorization number and told me that FedEx would come pick it up today. That is very impressive customer service and in line with what I have heard from others who have dealt with Kahr.

    I can't help but wonder, given the number of returns that I am hearing about, how they are making a profit? Their profit margin on these pistols must be immense to be able to absorb single or multiple returns for warranty repair, replacement, and shipping.

    Well...their business model really is of no concern to me. I just want my pistol made reliable. We'll see how it develops.
     
  16. Rockets

    Rockets Silver Member

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    Thanks for the info on Stephen, he was one of the good ones. Even without him I am sure Kahr will stand behind thier products. I too have wondered how they make a profit on the PM40. Even metioned in passing once to Stephen when I called about another matter that they did not return a mag with my PM40 and he being the stand up guy he was said why did I not tell him this before. I told him three PM40's shipping both ways, etc, they already lost all the profit in the gun. He cracked that they had not lost money, they made 38 cents. He will be missed. After getting a flawless PM40 even though they did owe me a mag I was so happy to get one that was flawless I told him that I was very happy and forget about sending me a mag.

    Rockets
     
  17. warmrain

    warmrain

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    Yes, this is the norm. Even though their policy is that you pay the shipping on warrant returns, often they will do it on a brand new gun.

    Yes, but you know, we generally only hear about the problem ones here so it slews the awareness of what's really happening.

    Great, this is the other part of choosing a pistol, or any product, and that is the company behind the product.
     
  18. fishshooter

    fishshooter

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    My PM40 was the least reliable pistol I have ever owned. Even the damn magazine follower broke and jammed it. It wouldn't return to battery half the time, until I got a new spring. After some time that spring started doing the same thing. The magazine catch broke at the range and the magazine just fell out. You shouldn't have to send in a gun in this price bracket back to the factory three times. The all metal Kahrs may be good weapons, but the pm's are garbage. No other manufacturer's forum has as many complaints as this one. I'd suggest trading yours in on something else. That's what I did.
     
  19. eor

    eor

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    I may have misunderstood Brian as to who is going to pay for shipping the PM40 back to the factory...looks like it is going to be on my tab.

    I purchased a Springfield Armory XD40 Subcompact today so I can be patient with Kahr. If they replace mine with a new one, I might then consider a trade or sale. I'd rather have it as a CCW...much easier to conceal than the XD40SC or the G27.

    Dottie did return my call from last Friday.
     
  20. warmrain

    warmrain

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    IIRC the official warranty statement is that you are responsible for the shipping back to Kahr. However, on a brand new pistol I have had them offer to pay the return shipping. And, when they have not offered - on a brand new pistol, I have asked and had them provide shipping. When they have provided shipping it has always been done by a pick up order provided by them to the carrier, never by reimbursement.